" you believe Jesus to be one with Jehovah at the time of his "birth" and I say he wasn't a god or anything like Jehovah in the beginning, it took billions of years for Jesus to take on the attributes and qualities of Jehovah."
Based on Colossians 1:15, many say Christ was created or born. Does this mean He’s not deity?
A. I believe Colossians 1:15, which reads, “[Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature,” is a very clear reference about the awesome nature of Christ, which is a belief under attack even in many Christian churches. The Messianic prophecy in Psalm 89:27 also reads, “I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth,” showing that Christ was not the firstborn prior to the creation narrative in Genesis, but rather He was to be made firstborn after the Psalmist penned his words. “The firstborn of every creature” is explained in Colossians 1:18 as “the firstborn from the dead.”
We can also use a modern-day example. In America, we call the president’s wife First Lady, but that doesn’t mean she was the first lady born. It merely designates her role in America. Colossians should be read in the same way.
The word firstborn in Greek does not mean first one given birth to. Instead, it means the one who has priority—the one who has first position. A more accurate translation might say, “Who is the image of the invisible God, the first of every creature, or the highest of every creature.”
Another thing we need to remember is all of the times Jesus called Himself infinite. You can’t ignore those Scriptures when understanding His nature! For instance, Christ said, “Before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58). He also calls Himself the Alpha and Omega (Revelation 1:8). Jesus is from everlasting to everlasting (Isaiah 63:16; Psalm 90:2). And one of the best Scriptures to explain that Christ is eternal is in the gospel of John: “All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made” (1:3). If Christ made everything that’s made, He couldn’t have made Himself.
- See more at:
http://www.amazingfacts.org/news-an...sus-a-created-being.aspx#sthash.rg6TrbnQ.dpuf
proverbs 8 provides my point below about htere relationship
he was daily Gods delight,and he was the son of God in eternity also witnessed by dan 3.25
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
23
mI have been established from everlasting,
From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When
there were no depths I was brought forth,
When
there were no fountains abounding with water.
25
nBefore the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the
5fields,
Or the
6primal dust of the world.
27 When He prepared the heavens, I
was there,
When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He established the clouds above,
When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
29
oWhen He assigned to the sea its limit,
So that the waters would not transgress His command,
When
pHe marked out the foundations of the earth,
30
qThen I was beside Him
as 7a master craftsman;
rAnd I was daily
His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
"Jehovah would have had faith in Jesus being able to complete the mission as he had a trust in Jesus that had been created over billions of years. Also Jesus being the only begotten son as in his being unique as the first of Jehovah's creative works. That also made him the perfect choice. Jesus himself also says that after he was created he had a love for the sons of man. So no better a choice could have been made"
Unlike man, Jesus Christ is the perfect, absolutely accurate image of God.
He did not become the image of God at the incarnation, but has been that from all eternity. Hebrews 1:3 describes Jesus as “the radiance of [God’s] glory.”
Christ reflects God’s attributes, as the sun’s light reflects the sun
Further, He is said to be “the exact representation of [God’s] nature.”
Charakter (“exact representation”) refers to an engraving tool, or stamp. Jesus is the exact likeness of God
He is in the very form of God (Phil. 2:6)
That is why He could say,
“He who has seen Me has seen the Father” (John 14:9)
In Christ, the invisible God became visible, “and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father” (John 1:14)
Based on Colossians 1:15, many say Christ was created or born. Does this mean He’s not deity?
A. I believe Colossians 1:15, which reads, “[Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature,” is a very clear reference about the awesome nature of Christ, which is a belief under attack even in many Christian churches. The Messianic prophecy in Psalm 89:27 also reads, “I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth,” showing that Christ was not the firstborn prior to the creation narrative in Genesis, but rather He was to be made firstborn after the Psalmist penned his words. “The firstborn of every creature” is explained in Colossians 1:18 as “the firstborn from the dead.”
We can also use a modern-day example. In America, we call the president’s wife First Lady, but that doesn’t mean she was the first lady born. It merely designates her role in America. Colossians should be read in the same way.
The word firstborn in Greek does not mean first one given birth to. Instead, it means the one who has priority—the one who has first position. A more accurate translation might say, “Who is the image of the invisible God, the first of every creature, or the highest of every creature.”
Another thing we need to remember is all of the times Jesus called Himself infinite. You can’t ignore those Scriptures when understanding His nature! For instance, Christ said, “Before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58). He also calls Himself the Alpha and Omega (Revelation 1:8). Jesus is from everlasting to everlasting (Isaiah 63:16; Psalm 90:2). And one of the best Scriptures to explain that Christ is eternal is in the gospel of John: “All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made” (1:3). If Christ made everything that’s made, He couldn’t have made Himself.
- See more at:
http://www.amazingfacts.org/news-an...sus-a-created-being.aspx#sthash.rg6TrbnQ.dpuf
Based on Colossians 1:15, many say Christ was created or born. Does this mean He’s not deity?
A. I believe Colossians 1:15, which reads, “[Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature,” is a very clear reference about the awesome nature of Christ, which is a belief under attack even in many Christian churches. The Messianic prophecy in Psalm 89:27 also reads, “I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth,” showing that Christ was not the firstborn prior to the creation narrative in Genesis, but rather He was to be made firstborn after the Psalmist penned his words. “The firstborn of every creature” is explained in Colossians 1:18 as “the firstborn from the dead.”
We can also use a modern-day example. In America, we call the president’s wife First Lady, but that doesn’t mean she was the first lady born. It merely designates her role in America. Colossians should be read in the same way.
The word firstborn in Greek does not mean first one given birth to. Instead, it means the one who has priority—the one who has first position. A more accurate translation might say, “Who is the image of the invisible God, the first of every creature, or the highest of every creature.”
Another thing we need to remember is all of the times Jesus called Himself infinite. You can’t ignore those Scriptures when understanding His nature! For instance, Christ said, “Before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58). He also calls Himself the Alpha and Omega (Revelation 1:8). Jesus is from everlasting to everlasting (Isaiah 63:16; Psalm 90:2). And one of the best Scriptures to explain that Christ is eternal is in the gospel of John: “All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made” (1:3). If Christ made everything that’s made, He couldn’t have made Himself.
- See more at:
http://www.amazingfacts.org/news-an...sus-a-created-being.aspx#sthash.rg6TrbnQ.dpuf
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Actually, the Greek text does not give a specific preposition in Colossiams 1:15--it must be ascertained from the noun which is here in the genitive case.In other words, it is not literally in the Greek "of" all creation or "over" all creation for that matter. The preposition "of" is not there--in fact, there is no separate preposition. The word is ktiseos (genitive, singular, feminine/neuter of ktisis--creation). The genitve case has many nuances which must be understood and taken along with the context in which the word is found. The context of Colossians 1:15 is Jesus as the Creator of all and as the one who is "the image of the invisible God"--God in the flesh. He is the preeminent one and He is before all things.In light of the context, what does Colossians 1:15 mean--especially prototokos with ktiseos (preeminence over all creation). It is within lexical accuracy to give prototokos a meaning of preeminence. Also, the Genitive of Subordination allows for the translation "over" although there is disagreement over this. It is also possible that this is a Genitive of Reference which would give a translation of "with reference to all creation." The Partitive Genitive, latched unto by Jehovah's Witnesses, would give the idea that Christ was "part of" creation, but this opposes the entire context in which this verse is found--the deity of Christ who is the very image of God, i.e. God! |
the Jehovah's Witnesses thinking that the partitive genitive would give the idea that Christ was "part of" creation.
In their
Reasoning from the Scripture book, they argue that "before Colossians 1:15, the expression 'firstborn of' occurs upwards of 30 times in the Bible, and in each instance that it is applied to living creatures the same meaning applies-the firstborn is part of the group. 'the firstborn of Isreal' is one of the sons of Israel; 'the firstborn of Pharaoh' is one of Pharaoh's family; 'the firstborn of the beast' are themselves animals. What, then causes some to ascribe a different meaning to it at Colossians 1:15?"
JW's reasoning, Jesus is part of creation because each time the bible mentions the firstborn of something, that firstborn is part of that group.
It's dangerous to think that just because the same phrase happens in the bible that all phrases must be interpretated in that same pattern
In fact, the JWs don't even follow the same punctuation rule when it comes to inserting a comma after the phrase "Truly I say to you' in Luke 23:43, yet in each of the 71 times that Truly I say to you is used in the bible, the comma is inserted in their New World Translation after the phrase except in Luke 23:43.
Ive always meant to ask mrg why the JWs , why not follow the same punctuation rule at Luke 23:43?
To answer the question, what then causes some to ascribe a different meaning to the expression "the firstborn of " at Colossians 1:15 is the fact that Colossians 1:15 is not contextually similar to the same expression used in other places in Scripture
Exodus 11:5 helps to shed light on my point.
And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from
the firstborn of Pharaoh who sits on his throne, even to
the firstborn of the female servant who is behind the handmill, and all
the firstborn of the animals.
Here we can see the contextual meaning of the expression “the firstborn of
“ The firstborn of Pharaoh, of the female servant, and of the animals are the eldest procreated children, who are definetly part of that group. However, in Colossians 1:15, we don’t have the same expression. The expression is “the firstborn of all creation” and
not the firstborn of Jehovah.
We see in verses 16 and 17 that by him ALL things were created and that He is before ALL things.
How can ALL things be created by Him in heaven, in earth, visible and invisible if Jesus is also part of the creation?
Paul here is speaking of the whole created universe
Also, if Jesus is literally the firstborn of all creation, that would mean that creation parented Him using that same logic that the JWs are using in regard to the expression "the firstborn of" makes the firstborn part of that same group.
Firstborn expresses more clearly than almost any other title given to Jesus the unity between God-the Father and God-the Son’s saving will. Jesus is mentioned three times in the bible as “the firstborn among many brethren,” “the firstborn of all creation,” and “the firstborn from the dead.”
In all three of these instances, we see that firstborn gives Him the position of the highest honor and preeminence. Again, if I want to use the same JW's reasoning, then each time that firstborn is used in reference to Jesus, we see that it refers to his preeminence over that group.
With that in mind, it even further proves why Jesus has preeminence OVER creation and why the preposition "over" would be the appropriate translation of Colossians 1:15 instead of the word "of."
God says in Isaiah 44:24
I am the LORD, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself.
We see here that God is the only maker of all things.
Clearly this verse makes it impossible for anyone to think that Jesus was created first by God and then at some later time God made all other things through Him.
The only conclusion one can draw from this verse is that Jesus was right there with God when creation began.
johm 1.1
God who is the maker of all things, “who stretches out the heavens all alone,” and who spreads abroad the earth by Himself, did it alone but because He and His son are one (John 10:30), Jesus accompanied Him in the creation process as shown in John 1:3, Colossians 1:16; and Hebrews 1:2.
Going back to the context of Colossians 1, firstborn cannot have two different meanings in the same context. If “first-created” was substituted for firstborn in verse eighteen to read "first created from the dead," this is obviously meaningless, so there must be more to the idea of "firstbornness."
As shown in Genesis 41:51-52 and Jeremiah 31:9, it is clear that firstborn means more than the first child born.
Remember, these are the words of God. “Did God make a mistake, or is He using 'firstborn' in the sense of 'preeminence'?
Obviously, the latter is true. This coordinates exactly with the context and obviously Paul’s intended meaning in Colossians. Paul spoke in the same manner as God had spoken in the Old Testament, making Jesus the Heir of all creation, the One not only by whom, but for whom everything was made (Col. 1:16). He is the head, the ruler, the creator, the preeminent One over all creation. Indeed, Paul's argument throughout Colossians is the preeminence, superiority and sufficiency of Christ.
In no way does he reduce Christ to anything less than Deity.
Since Jehovah God alone created all things (Isaiah 44:24; Hebrews 3:4), and Colossians tells us that Christ is the creator, we can conclude that Jesus is the Son pf god.
Further, it is demonstrated that born does not mean created from Jesus' title "Son of God."
Some might understand this to mean that He must have come into existence at some point and that He is less than God (the Son of God, not God), in just the same way that a human son comes into existence after his human father.
Based on Colossians 1:15, many say Christ was created or born. Does this mean He’s not deity?
A. I believe Colossians 1:15, which reads, “[Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature,” is a very clear reference about the awesome nature of Christ, which is a belief under attack even in many Christian churches. The Messianic prophecy in Psalm 89:27 also reads, “I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth,” showing that Christ was not the firstborn prior to the creation narrative in Genesis, but rather He was to be made firstborn after the Psalmist penned his words. “The firstborn of every creature” is explained in Colossians 1:18 as “the firstborn from the dead.”
We can also use a modern-day example. In America, we call the president’s wife First Lady, but that doesn’t mean she was the first lady born. It merely designates her role in America. Colossians should be read in the same way.
The word firstborn in Greek does not mean first one given birth to. Instead, it means the one who has priority—the one who has first position. A more accurate translation might say, “Who is the image of the invisible God, the first of every creature, or the highest of every creature.”
Another thing we need to remember is all of the times Jesus called Himself infinite. You can’t ignore those Scriptures when understanding His nature! For instance, Christ said, “Before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58). He also calls Himself the Alpha and Omega (Revelation 1:8). Jesus is from everlasting to everlasting (Isaiah 63:16; Psalm 90:2). And one of the best Scriptures to explain that Christ is eternal is in the gospel of John: “All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made” (1:3). If Christ made everything that’s made, He couldn’t have made Himself.
- See more at:
http://www.amazingfacts.org/news-an...sus-a-created-being.aspx#sthash.rg6TrbnQ.dpuf
Based on Colossians 1:15, many say Christ was created or born. Does this mean He’s not deity?
A. I believe Colossians 1:15, which reads, “[Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature,” is a very clear reference about the awesome nature of Christ, which is a belief under attack even in many Christian churches. The Messianic prophecy in Psalm 89:27 also reads, “I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth,” showing that Christ was not the firstborn prior to the creation narrative in Genesis, but rather He was to be made firstborn after the Psalmist penned his words. “The firstborn of every creature” is explained in Colossians 1:18 as “the firstborn from the dead.”
We can also use a modern-day example. In America, we call the president’s wife First Lady, but that doesn’t mean she was the first lady born. It merely designates her role in America. Colossians should be read in the same way.
The word firstborn in Greek does not mean first one given birth to. Instead, it means the one who has priority—the one who has first position. A more accurate translation might say, “Who is the image of the invisible God, the first of every creature, or the highest of every creature.”
Another thing we need to remember is all of the times Jesus called Himself infinite. You can’t ignore those Scriptures when understanding His nature! For instance, Christ said, “Before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58). He also calls Himself the Alpha and Omega (Revelation 1:8). Jesus is from everlasting to everlasting (Isaiah 63:16; Psalm 90:2). And one of the best Scriptures to explain that Christ is eternal is in the gospel of John: “All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made” (1:3). If Christ made everything that’s made, He couldn’t have made Himself.
- See more at:
http://www.amazingfacts.org/news-an...sus-a-created-being.aspx#sthash.rg6TrbnQ.dpuf
