adam, eve and the devil, page-96

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    Ronsterm,

    I'll address you post point by point, hope that's OK, it tends to be how I work, at least online. :)

    "So just to be clear what we are talking about and so avoid wasting precious electrons slaying strawmen I will lay out how I see things. Please tell me where you disagree.

    At the most basic psychological level, do we have the power to choose our thoughts? Can we control what we will be thinking in 30 seconds time? Thoughts come and go of their own accord(at least that's my experience)in a stream of consciousness. I have no idea of what I will be thinking of in 30 seconds time and I doubt anyone else does either."

    Ok, I understand completely what you mean so far. But this too can be controlled, at least to a large degree. Learning to be in the moment, where you are is a good first step.

    "Some say we are free to do what we want, but do we "choose" our wants? Personally speaking, I want what I want at the time, but I certainly don't "choose" them.Same for likes/dislikes, passions, fears, preferences etc Does anyone actually consciously choose any of that? Do we even get to choose what foods we like and dislike? I doubt it..."

    Maybe not. But we CAN choose how to deal with those things. If I 'dislike' cabbage I can choose to avoid cabbage. But what about something more important? Something that has real world consequences. Lets say that I hate tyranny, I look around the world at what's going on and see tyranny everywhere. I analyse those things and decide that tyranny is bad. Now am I right or wrong or have I just grabbed onto a pre-made decision from your endless stream of thought? More below.

    "We cannot "choose" our beliefs... we either believe X or not."

    Bollocks. I certainly wasn't raised as a believer and I most definitely didn't end up there as a reaction to that upbringing or because I like what I believe. I came to that position because after many years of study, reflection, thought and CHOICES I decided it was true. All of that involves free will in some way or another as does maintain those beliefs and being willing to change them if something comes a long that seems more truthful.

    "Like falling in(or out of) love,"

    Wrong again. Controlling those baser emotions should be a first priority. What I mean is that you can choose to fall in love with someone and you can (should) choose NOT to fall in love with someone else at the same time.

    "being happy or unhappy or a thousand other things,we either do or we don't though we may tell ourselves(and others) stories to justify it later, it is out of our conscious control."

    Moods come and go for all kinds of different reasons, you can examine yourself at the time and figure out if there's something else going on or if it is just a mood. If it is you are FREE to CHOOSE to ignore it or to be led around by it.


    "Our beliefs may(and almost certainly will) change over time but that has nothing to do with a conscious decision. Even if it were then where did that "decision" come from?"

    Your mind and will.

    "There are thousands of different decisions made by all of us every day and 99.99% of them are made subconsciously and we don't even notice them, and only think we are choosing when there are conflicting possibilities."

    Ok, that's probably true too, but as I said before, just because most of us CHOOSE to go through life on automatic pilot that doesn't that free will isn't there for those who CHOOSE to make use of it.

    "You may see it as a choice, I see it that the subconscious decision is announcing itself to the conscious."

    But then what (or who?) is that subconscious? Obviously it has will and purpose so it it's not you then who is it and why do you listen to it?

    "OK, as I see it we don't "choose" our thoughts,feelings, wants, beliefs, friends or food preferences even(we either like them or not, no choice there), so what exactly do we choose? "

    The doctor has got me on a special diet ATM, I don;t like it and I have to use some free will power to stick to it. I could ignore it and go with what I 'like' or what my subconscious tells me but I CHOOSE not to.

    So out of your list I am happy to go half way.

    "thoughts"

    Can be controlled, directed or ignored, but it takes practice and patience.

    "feelings"

    You might not be able to choose them but they can be ignored or acted upon by CHOICE.

    "wants"

    There's a whole worldview called Buddhism that is founded on the idea that the cause of all our suffering is desire, or wants. Those things as well can be controlled, you do it by learning contentment.

    "beliefs"

    Completely free to choose, if you WANT to.

    "friends"

    Yeah that one's in interesting point, I guess we can't choose who will come into our lives but we can choose how we act towards them. Act like a dick and you wont have many freinds. Your choice.

    "food preferences"

    Completely choosable. I used to be the king of junk food but over the last 25 years or so have through FREE CHOICE avoided most of them to the point where I really and not even tempted anymore.

    So in summary, I understand you mean but I can assure you that it doesn't (in most cases) have to be that way, but changing and taking control of your life involves time, patience and effort so I understand where most people will simply justify that change as impossible and not even try. :)
 
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