the whereu dilemma, page-254

First thank you for the time and effort that you put into replying. I know that this type of response is time consuming and takes a lot of thought.

"Two points that I have issues with are:

One) Inheritance of the consequences of people committing sins (transgressing)."
Ok,im listening


You posted the following
“Because of humanities fall,we were given over to a reprobate mind,sin,or being carnal became our nature.Every human now inherits this fallen position and nature,one at odds with his original disposition given him by his creator.”

To which I responded

""A "design" that lead to all future generations inheriting a "reprobate mind""
You in turn responded with
No,he created beings with free choice,free will,to obey,or not to obey.
And according to what they CHOSE,will be according to what their future is."
Ok

"My point is that “free will” is compromised by the inheritance of a reprobate mind as a result of transgressions committed by an ancestor. My opinion? Yes. But, I believe a reasonable opinion.

"I find the idea of future generations paying for the transgressions of ancestors until a restorative remedy is fully applied at some unknown date in the future is unjust. I appreciate that this is an opinion, but believe it is an opinion based on rational thinking and fairness. This is especially true if the future generations did not themselves exercise their free wills to commit sins attributable to their ancestors which supposedly lead to reprobate minds."

Ok,fair enough you have that opinion
But in your replies,you blamed God for what happened
From the bible,i correctly showed you how,it was not God at all
The adversary assumed,that God would instantly destroy the fallen humans,because they were now,by nature outside of what he originally created.
I demonstrated,from the many verses to support that view,that God had forgiven them,before they had even sinned.
God demonstrated forgiveness,and willingness to rescue mankinds position,from their exercising their free will to disobey him,though,choice.
I also used verses that support,Death and dieing were never part of Gods plan.
Pain,suffering etc were also not part of Gods original plan either.
Now,imo,with the evidence i put up,that the view you hold,is obviously not correct,in regards to how You yourself
see things,and your own opinion.



"Two) Forgiveness


I posted
Forgiveness is a major theme in scripture; yet little mention is made of God forgiving Adam and Eve for their transgression even though Eve admitted that she had been deceived."
Your response
DISAGREE,HE GAVE THEM THE PROMISE OF A REDEEMER,he gave them a way out and forgiveness for their transgressions through the sacrifical sytems that pointed to the savoiur who would forgive them their sins,and redeem mankind,it is the theme of the bible from start to finish,that God so loved the world,that he gave his only begotten son,that whomsoever shall believe in him shall have everlasting life John 3.16

and


Just as telling a child who has never experienced what a hot plate is,and the results of touching one, from their own experience

Only because a parent told them,do not really fully understand the consequences,until they choose to touch it themselves.

Once they do touch it,they then fully,understand the consequences of making that choice.They may well be sorry they didnt listen and disobeyed,but the disobedience,had consequences,pain,no matter how sorry they are after the fact,that dosent change the consequences of the action chosen to be done.
Same with sin,Adam flet guilt,because he hid himself,there was a change that took place after the action he took,his nature changed,he felt guilt,and actually the opposite to what you are claiming happened.
God showed mercy on their choice,or free will ,to sin,he gave mankind a way to be redeemed.
He set out the guidelines as a loving creator,but bound by their own free choice to bring sin and dieing into the world,gave those who choose to have their sins forgiven,a way out.”


"This, to me, sounds like receiving forgiveness but still having to bear the consequences.

So Adam and Eve transgressed and in spite of forgiveness the consequences (death) still had to be borne.

However in my opinion this isn't what forgiveness (including biblical forgiveness) is about. Forgiveness is more than saying: “you are forgiven”.

It is also about absolving the perpetrator the consequences of the wrong doing. Saying to someone: I forgive you the debt that you have to me, but you still have to pay me what you owe me” is hardly forgiveness.

Whereru,God dosent say,at all,WE have to pay anything

The theme of the bible is grace(unmerited favour)

God himself,did what we couldnt.

He sent his son,in the likeness of sinful flesh,to redeem us,where we were at

What you posted here is, in my opinion, in line with forgiveness
"Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy. You will again have compassion on us; you will tread our sins underfoot and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea." Micah 7:18-19

"I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more." Isaiah 43:25

"To me this sounds like all memory and hence of consequences will be erased because ”you will tread our sins underfoot and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea” and “ even I, am he who blots out your transgressions”.

This act of grace didn't seem to apply to Adam and Eve because they still had to bear the consequences of their transgressions."

Maybe,you do not understand the position,God is in?

All governments,are governed by the rule of law.Gods government,is no different.
God lost the right,by the choice of Adams sin,to be the ruler of this world,as the verses i stated say
This world,is the world of the prince of darkness,he has by right of deception,ownership of the human race on this earth.
God has to win those who choose to choose Christ as their redeemer back,by their own choice to accept the sacrifice of Christ in their stead,as in Adam all have sinned.In Christ all shall live.

1corin 15
For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

God,cannot,just enforce his will by force,this is not his way
If it was,he would have imposed himself
Gods government,is based on principle of law
This earth,has to run its course,so there can never be this conflict again,and all beings will understand the consequences by what happened here on this earth,a fallen place,that God demonstrated his love and forgiveness by what he did.



You also posted

“You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.'"Gen 3.3

And in Gen 2.17

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.

The adversary said the exact opposite to them.””


To me this sounds very much like a spat between Lucifer and God in which humans and all creation have become pawns."

i can understand why you say that

It is a conflict of freedom of choice

A created being wanted what was God and his son alones divine right to govern.

God could have as soon as satan,sinned or had the first thought of rebellion,destroyed him,but then every being would then follow him through fear,not love and respect

God allowed freedom of choice,freedom to rebel

God dose not impose himself on those that do not want to willingly accept what he has to offer

He says,he knocks on the door to our heart

If by our free will,we open that door,he will come in,and reside in the believers heart.

He will not impose himself,on someone that dosent want him,worship must be from the heart and willingly given,or else he dosent want it

And who would?

Satan,will take worship how ever he can get it,this world is the finest example of it.

Imo,Whereru,you are blaming the wrong being,despite the evidence to the contrary?

This is what the mainstream Christian/pagan concepts do,change what the message of the gospel is,maybe this has had an influence on your thinking and opinions because you have said you have gone to these places?

Thanks again,for your thoughts and reply