Rahab&#039;s Red Rope

Originally posted by wotsup ↑

Paul isn't postulating what was in the mind of God before the beginning of creation,

So sayeth the mind of Coppo as the Bible on the hole would, does, suggest otherwise;
Jesus told them the likes of, "you search the scriptures for in them you think you have life and they are those that speak of me".
OT scriptures clearly point out,.. prophesy of a FUTURE one to be = In the mind and plans of God, where your creation begins.
Also known as Glory in the Bible and part of the Glory Jesus makes known, was with God alone before the world literally existed WITH God, John 17:5, the Greek version of which I showed you.

Paul would have known full well that all things were created via the word of God and as the scriptures show in many places, via God ALONE.
Paul states very clearly that Jesus was the 2nd Adam and well and truly many years after the 1st Adam.
Paul also makes it very clear, God only spoke in and through Jesus in these LAST days, hence heaven and earth could not have been literally created through Jesus.
OT scriptures clearly show us, the firstborn of creation, a literal creation event, was the Heavens followed via the Hosts of which Jesus would have been if he pre-existed = Jesus is NOT the literal, physical, firstborn of creation.

So that forces us to take in other passages so we can understand what Paul is actually saying, meaning, as Paul would have been up to speed with the OT passages and knowing that the heavens were the literal firstborn of creation.

God created through Jesus = The bible is clear in many passages, God alone, his hands etc which is also shown in the Bible at times, to refer, mean, his word.
Therefore, it is very clear as to how we need to take in, understand the through context and the Greek clearly give this.

Through = DIA --> through, on account of, because of, for the sake of, by reason of = the one to be was God's driving force, so to speak.
We must not loose sight of, God sees things that are not yet done as though they are done.
These backup meanings well and truly fit, align with, in the mind and plans of God, where your creation begins, a Jesus to be was first cap off the ranks in the mind of God and all things created because of and for him.
Col 1:18 - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;that (so that, or for this reason) in all thingshe might have the preeminence.

Rom 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
No way are these people literally, physically, the firstborn, likewise, the same for Jesus.
Gal 4:4 - But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Very clear here, as to when Jesus literally, physically began, was created if you prefer that terminology.

So in short, what the Bible on the hole is saying, Jesus in the mind and plans of God (inner creation) was the firstborn, the beginning of the creation of God (inner creation) and all other things were created for the sake of etc, for this future one to be and when the times are fulfilled, all things will be and where placed into his hands, literally now --> before, head of all things until death no more where he will then be subject to God, the one that put all things under his feet.

Expand

"So sayeth the mind of Coppo as the Bible on the hole would, does, suggest otherwise;"

Now you are simply repeating the reasons you believe Paul's writing was in error. In my view you have made a convincing case with the material presented, so not sure why you continue to repeat it.

The point I'm making is that as written, what Paul says is not about what was in the mind of God but actual fact. His statement is simple, clear and unequivical. If Paul meant it to be what you say ... then that's what he would have written.

This is no doubt why so many ... perhaps almost all other Christians believe what he said was meant to be taken literally as fact. Not something that must be re-interpreted via "what was in the mind of God".
This agreement even includes MrG whose organisation is noted as "flexible" in arriving at unusual interpretations not shared by most other Christians.
As an aside and regarding the failed 1914 prophecy, the JW should simply have stated that this second coming did happen but only in the mind of God. The actual appearance will be detached from His mind and enacted at a later date. No need for all this far fetched "invisible" stuff.

So again, for the third time, would you rewrite what Paul should have said so that it can be presented to all other Christians as convincing evidence that they must revise what they thought Paul meant.

We have to keep this simple wotsup. Just write Paul's verses as they should be and if anyone queries it then you can provide the background reasons later.

.