"The doctrine you are teaching,denies the sonship of Christ
Therefore,this verse applies to those who teach that doctrine.
Saying Jesus was a created being and a human sacrifice
Is denying the sonship of christ and therefore rejecting God"
Hi Angus,
There are so many versions of who Jesus was, so many interpretations for phrases and words such as "Son of God", Divine, sacrifice etc.
Perhaps you can clarify your view on some points.
SURE
Do you distinguish between the human man Jesus, said to have been fathered by God and born of the human Mary and the "pre-existent Son of God" which you and others feel was also Michael ?
Sure,GODS SON IN HEAVEN WAS THE COMMANDER OR LEADER OF THE ANGELS
OBVIOUSLY A SPIRIT BEING
ANy of this i can give you the verses too
BUT IFOR EASE OF THIS CONVO I CAN REPLY FASTER
LIKE THIS
THE SON LAID ASIDE HIS POSITION IN HEAVEN AND ASSUMED HUMANITY,AND EVERYTHING THIS ENTAILED.
FOR EXAMPLE WHEN HE WAS TAKEN BY SATAN WHEN HERE ON EARTH AND SATAN SAID,IF YOU BE THE SON OF GOD CAST YOURSELF DOWN AND GOD WILL SAVE YOU
HE KNEW WHO HE WAS,AND TEMPTED HIM TO SAVE HIMSELF
THE SON AS A HUMAN HAD TO BE OUR EXAMPLE OF EXISTING TOTALLY BY OBEDIENCE TO HIS FATHER IN ORDER TO RESTORE MANKIND BACK TO REDEMPTION.
BECAUSE HE WAS THE SON OF GOD
HE WAS THE ONLY BEING IN EXISTENCE THAT WAS ABLE TO RESTORE MAN BACK TO THE IMAGE OF GOD,BECAUSE HE WAS THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF GOD HIMSELF
If so, what is their relationship ?
THe pre EXISTENT SON OF THE OT
AS HEBREWS ETC BECAME HUMAN FLESH AND CAME TO THIS EARTH TO REPRESENT GOD TO MANKIND
Clearly, the humanity of the man Jesus made him a created being ... otherwise why the necessity for a human Mother ?
HE HAD TO MEET SIN WHERE SIN ENTERED.
SO HE HAD TO BE BORN OF A WOMAN,SIN ENTERED THIS EARTH AT EVE.
HE HAD TO BE A HUMAN TO FREE HUMANITY.
THE POINT OF CONTENSION ABOUT BEING A CREATED BEING IS THIS
THE OPPOSING VIEW JW ETC LIKE WHAT WOTSUP IS SAYING,IS THAT THE SON WAS CREATED.
THIS ORIGIN IN HISTORY IS CALLED ARIANISM
CHRISTIANITY ORIGINS CAN BASICALLY BE BOILED DOWN TO 3 BELIEF SYSTEMS ,WHICH ACTUALLY WHEN PUSH COMES TO SHOVE,REALLY ARE 3 DIFFERENT RELIGIONS.
THERE IS THE TRINTARIANS WHICH WOULD ACCOUNT FOR 90%Of CHRISTIANITY AND IS THOUGH OF AS ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN BELIEF,THE WORLD COUNCIL OF CHURCHES CLASSES ANYONE WHO DOES NOT ADHERE TO THIS VERSION OF GOD AS A CULT AND OUTSIDE ORTHODOXY.
THEN THERE IS WHATS CALLED SEMI ARIANISM WHICH IS MY BELIEF WHICH IS A MINORITY LESS THAN ARIANISM OF WHICH OF COARSE I BELIEVE IS THE ORIGINAL BELIEFS OF ANCIENT CHRISTIANITY THAT CAME OUT OF JUDAISM ETC
THE SON OF GOD BY DEFINITION,IS ACTUALLY GODS ACTUALLY SON,BORN OF THE FATHER,A LITERAL FATHER SON RELATIONSHIP.
AS BEING A LITERAL SON,GOD BEING PERFECT AND DIVINE.
THE BIBLE SAYS HIS SON IS THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF GODS PERSON.
ALL THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD WERE INHERITED BY THE SON,HE IS OF LIKE SUBSTANCE AS THE FATHER,THIS WAS THE CONFLICT AT THE CONCIL OF NICEA ,WHERE GOD WAS DEFINED BY THE STATE AS A TRINITY,THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY THE SO CALLED CHRISTIAN GOD WAS CALLED THAT.
THE JEWS AND HEBREWS BELIEVED IN 1GOD THE FATHER,AND STILL DO TO THIS DAY.
SO THIS WAS A ROMAN /PAGAN IDEOLOGY WHICH WAS ENFORCED BY THE STATE AND THIS WAS I THINK FROM MEMORY THE COUNCIL OF NICEA WAS 325AD?
SO WITH MY UNDERSTANDING. WHY THERE IS CONFLICT ABOUT JOHN 1.1
IS THAT THERE ARE 2 DIVINE BEINGS
IMMORTAL OMNIPOTENT OMNIPRESENT ETC ETC AND BOTH ABLE TO BE WORSHIPPED BYBCREATED BEINGS.
IF GODS SON WAS A CREATED BEING AS JW AND WOTSUPS VIEW SAY HE IS AND HIS EXISTENCE STARTED AT THE INCARNATION ON EARTH.
HE FALLS SHORT OF THE SACRIFICE NEEDED TO BE THE REDEEMER,AND RESTORE THE IMAGE OF GOD BACK INTO HUMANITY.
I think you have said that the Divine Son of God/Michael cannot be part of creation. Why not ?
BECAUSE DIVINITY BY DEFINITION IS SELF SUSTAINABLE NOT SUBJECT TO ANYTHING
THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF DIVINE.
A CREATION IS SUBJECT AND LIMITED,AND EXCLUDED FROM BEING WORSHIPPED.
THE FATHER IN HEBREWS OPENLY APPROVES OF THE SON BEING WORSHIPPED AND EXALTED BY CREATION,AND HIS SON WAS THE CREATOR.
There is no reason why the Creator of the Universe could not create Gods in His image is there ?
IF YOU ARE CREATED
YOU ARE NOT GOD
YOU WOULD BE A SUBJECT
You say that claiming the man Jesus was a created being and therefore human sacrifice somehow denies the sonship of Christ and therefore rejects God. Why ?
YES MATE,AND THE REASON I GAVE,WAS THE BIBLE IN SEVERAL PLACES SAYS WHOEVER DENIES THE SON,DENIES THE FATHER,AND MAKES GOD A LIAR.
THROUGHOUT HISTORY,PEOPLE ASSUME THIS IS TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE DENYING THE SONS HUMANITY HERE ON EARTH,HIS SONSHIP HERE.
EVEN WOTSUP AND I CAN BASICALLY AGREE ON THIS TO A DEGREE (EXCUSE THE PUN)
BUT WHERE THE RUBBER HITS THE ROAD
THEY DENY WHO HE WAS IN HEAVEN
THEY DO NOT BELIEVE HE WAS GODS SON SENT FROM HEAVEN
LOOK AT THE VERSES I USED TO CONVEY THIS CONCEPT,WHICH YOU WILL NEVER GET FROM THE 2 OTHER MORE ORTHODOX CONCEPTS.
WHEN TALKING WITH THE PHARASEES,JESUS SAID TO THEM,BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS,IAM
THE BIBLE SAYS THEY WANTED TO TEAR HIM TO SHREDS FOR THIS,BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTOOD FULLY WHAT HE MEANT.
HE WAS CLAIMING TO BE GODS SON SENT FROM HEAVEN,AND THEY SAW THIS AS BLASPEMY MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL TO GOD.
IN CHAPTER 17 OF JOHN
JESUS TESTIMONY SAYS IN HIS PRAYER TO HIS FATHER,WHICH ISNT JUST A TERM USED IN ENDEARMENT AS WE ARE TOLD BY THE OTHER BELIEFS,HE IS HIS ACTUAL SON,JESUS SAID,GLORIFY ME,WITH THE GLORY I HAD WITH YOU,BEFORE THIS EARTH.
Wasn't the whole point of the Divine Son of God incarnating as the human son of God Jesus, to undergo life and then death as a human ?
YES,BUT,IF HES CREATED,BY DEFINITION,THAT ISNT DIVINE,AND THAT ISNT A SON.
IF JESUS WASNT GODS SON
WHY USE A TERM THAT IT DOSENT MEAN?
USE SOMETHING ELSE.
WHEN JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS HE CRIED OUT IN HEBREW ,WHICH TRANSLATED INTO ENGLISH MEANS DADDY,HIS HEART WAS BROKEN AND HE WANTED HIS FATHER!
Are you suggesting that God removed the Divinity of His Son of God/Michael, made him a human man, then sent him on a mission that would result in his unnecessarily cruel death on the cross, then restored his Divinity after this ?
NO ,THAT IS NOT WHAT IM SUGGESTING.
WHEN HIS SON CAME TO THIS EARTH,BORN OF A WOMAN AND WILLINGLY ACCEPTING HUMANITY,
HE WAS HUMAN,BUT HE STILL BY REASON OF WHO HE WAS THE DIVINE SON OF GOD.
AS A NON BELIEVER,YOU SAY AN UNNECESSARY CRUEL DEATH.
IF YOU CALL REDEEMING HUMANITY UNESSARSARY AND REVEALING WHAT LENGTHS GOD WAS PREPARED TO GO TO ,TO RESCUE AND REDEEM HUMANITY,THATS YOUR POROGATIVE.
FROM MY PERSPECTIVE THAT COMMENT CAN ONLY COME FROM NOT KNOWING THE STORY OF SALVATION.
GODS SON ACCEPTED HUMANITY FOREVER
HE IS THE SON OF MAN AND THE SON OF GOD.
THE BIBLE SAYS WHAT LOVE GOD SHOWED US THAT HE BECAME US,TO RESCUE US.
HE TOOK OUR DEATH AND PUNISHMENT,THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES THAT BY HIS SACRIFICE IN OUR PLACE.
WE CAN TAKE UP OUR PLACE AS ADOPTED SONS OF GOD AND HIS SPIRIT LIFE.
THE 1ST ADAM LOST OUR SALVATION
THE 2ND ADAM REGAINED IT AND REDEEMED HUMANITY ,THAT WHIMSOVER SHALL BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD SHALL INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE
THE CONTROVERSY ISNT ABOUT WHO JESUS WAS ON THIS EARTH
ITS WHO HE CLAIMED TO BE
THIS FACT IS HIDDEN BY MAINSTREAM BELIEF
What was the poiNt of that ? It would be like a bit of play acting.
IF YOU BELIEVE AS THE OTHERS DO,YOU ARE EXACTLY CORRECT
THATS WHY THE VERSE I GAVE YOU SAID,IN JOHN,WHO IS A LIAR,HE WHO DENIES THE FATHER AND SON.
YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD
THE OTHER BELIEFS MAKE THIS ALL A ROLE PLAY
AND THEREFORE DENY THE FACT THAT GOD LOST HIS SON FOR HUMANITY
Finally, you didn't reply to zbusc's post
40417141
but what do you say to his statement
"Whoever rejects The Trinity ARE NOT CHRISTIAN but instead are purely a religious cult"
?
LOL
THAT IS PART OF ORTHODOXY
YES THEY DO SAY THAT
BUT ANYONE WHO DOSENT JUST ACCEPT WHAT ROME SAYS,BECAUSE THEY AERNT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING AN EARLY BELIEF AND NON OF THEIR TEACHING ARE BIBLICAL,INFACT DURING THE DARK AGES THEY WOULD KILL BIBLICAL CHRISTIAN SIMPLY FOR BELIEVING THE BIBLE ABOVE THE CHURCH.
THEY USED TO KILL AND TORTURE THOSE WHO BELIEVED AS I DO AND WOTSUP DO ON THESE SUBJECTS.
YOU WILL FIND MOST CHRISTIANS WOULD PARROT THAT QUOTE BECAUSE ITS BEEN INDOCTRINATED INTO THEM WITHOUT QUESTION THAT GOD IS A TRINITY,WHICH WHEN EXAMINED ALSO MAKES JESUS NOT GOD ACTUAL SON,BUT A ROLE PLAYER.
TO QUESTION THIS ORTHODOX OPINION,IS STILL AKIN TO HERESY
