So you are trying to tell us, that Jesus wasn't the results of the Fathers plan and purpose and that Jesus is not the results of the Fathers words coming down from heaven, via the angel -> REALLY.
That is like Isa 55:10, 11 and let there be light..........let there be a Jesus and so he was.............you would deem the light was created, therefore the BIBLE and Not you creators show, that Jesus was created. The Bible in Heb alone, tells us twice that he was MADE, there is absolutely NO mention of him being made lower from something greater, before this making and to add that in there, would be nothing but a BIG lie, which I will NOT take part in.
No words of Jesus's, pre the cross state that I go BACK to the Father, the very reason you lot cannot provide such, as he was never there, other than as above.
