G'day mate, I'm inclined to feel that you claiming various things written were actually referring to what was in the mind of God in the beginning, is a very open ended device. In the mind of God --> Eph 3:9 - And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who--> created all things: Due 18:18 -I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. Prophesies --> God says, I will be a father to him and he will be a son to me. Psa 2:7 - This day I have begotten thee and we see this confirmation at Baptism timing. Gal 4:4 - But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
All this or being made of a woman, under the law etc are well and truly AFTER the first creation which the Bible tells us, was the heavens and NOT Jesus. The sent forth timing is after his Baptism timing.
Isa 28:10 - For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: There are numerous verses in line with the above quoted verses. If I was just drawing on one or two like Mr G and Co do, as in Col 1:15, then You might have a case, valid point, but I do not just draw upon one or two verses.
"(Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;" Paul didn't get it wrong and neither is it written in such a way to give a wrong meaning when one takes note of what else Paul says and many other Bible passages. Example, Heb 1:2, he makes it very clear that God ONLY spoke in, through, Jesus in these last days. Heavens and earth were made, created via the word = the word of God hence Jesus could not of spoken creation into being = he did not literally exist to literally, physically be the firstborn of creation.
"(Colossians 1:16) because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities.All other things have been created through him and for him."
"By means of him", very misleading conduct here. It gives the impression Jesus had a hands on role in creation. Because IN Him were created the things all things...............the things all things through Him and unto, to or into (purpose) Him have been created.
When the times were fulfilled, all things as the prior mind and plans of God had planed, were placed into Jesus's hands.
There is no question about it, your creation, the beginning of your creation, begins within you. Your post to me, your creation, inspired via my posts (haha) began within you. The word = The word of God as in God's inner plans etc are also known as Glory in the Bible and the true Greek interpretation of John 17:5 when you actually look at the meaning of the Greek words, Jesus confirms what I am putting forward as well. Firstly though, in John Ch 17 Jesus says, the Glory (the word = the word of God) which you have given me, I have given them as well and they have kept it.
John 17:5 - And now glorify Me You, Father, with Yourself, with the glory insofar held before the world existed, with YOU. (Most Bibles will have the words --> "Glory I held" = there is zero words in the Greek that you can create this "I" word from).
Jesus now asking for God's literal presents, first time and God himself also being glory. The glory held is via God alone as in the likes of Titus 1:2 - In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before time eternal; 2 Tim 1:9 - Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose (inner plans, glory) and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before time eternal, (Glory here, in the mind and plans of God, the beginning of this being, the future Jesus, making Jesus the beginning of the creation-of God Rev 3:14 and the firstborn of creation Col 1:15 and Jesus effectively being pre-slain in this plan Rev 13:8).
Jesus says, before the world existed WITH God = Jesus makes zero reference, hint of himself being there at this time. Before the world existed with God, suggests, the plan of the world, the future Jesus existed in the mind and plans of God. This plan is all, effectively summed up as Glory.
