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@angusmcfangledang

"Following is a reasonably long post as long posts (yours) requires long answers.
You go in circles with the same answers, which get countered with the Bible, which show they are wrong.
Ex - You quote from Heb, totally ignoring the aspects of Jesus their, ARE after the cross and you ignore in Heb that he was made lower than angels, NOT reduced to be lower.
Ex 2 . Claiming Jesus created, and the Bible knocks that right out of the ball park.
The likes of those points, backed with the Bible, you do NOT address, but simply repeat the same errors, over and over.

"You didn't address the valid points I made, based on the Bible, use those verses to counter it.

Hence, until you address them, you're not in the position to say there not valid."

"Oh yes i did,do you read this thread?
Whereu asked me give him one verse to show that God had a literal son"

We are not having a 3 way conversation here.
I also showed you, that based on Luke that the way Jesus was made by the Father, he is deemed as a Literal son, NO pre-existing required at all and you cannot refute this from those Bible passages, Luke etc.
To boot in Luke, because of the way he was made, he WILL BE called the Son of God = Future context, NO existing son at that point in time.
NO, this is NOT just speaking of the man aspect of Jesus.

Psa prophesy - I will (not yet) declare a decree, THIS DAY I have begotten thee = future -> This is my Son.............
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The clear Bible truth is, you don't need a pre-existing Son to send.

"Not true
I also replied to this point
The son is the author of faith,he is the originator of faith,because he was the first being to ever have faith."

Yes the Man Jesus, born out of Mary became so, so you fall into a hole again here lol.

John 17:18 - As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
17:16 - They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

They like Jesus, are deemed as of above, of God, of Heaven and like Jesus, they didn't pre-exist or come floating down from heaven.
Gal 4:4 (Time stamp of his sending) - But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

After he was raised by God in his word Due 18:18 and after he was baptized = You do NOT have to have a pre-existing son, to send into the world and the Bible clearly shows, without question.
-----------"Before any creation happened, because God used his son to create all things" = Not supported by the Bible, not my words, but the Bibles coming up.

"Obviously if he created the heavenly beings, he had a pre existence" PLEASE tell me that you're pulling my LEG?
For by IN him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by through him, and for him:
1cor 1.16

Isa 44:24 - Thus saith Yehowah, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I Yehowah that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;Yehowshuwa is Not Yehowah.
"For in him" = for this reason, the one to be, born from Mary, known as the firstborn of creation in the mind of God, where all our creations begin and in the exact same context, the Jesus to be was the beginning of the creation of God Rev 3:14.

Through = on account of, by reason of, because of, for the sake of, Yehowah created for this future one.
1:18 - And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Now literally, physically holding preeminence instead of a plan to be.
-----------------"Conception/birth from Mary, is still a literal Son, just not the way humans are."

"Thats a literal human son"

God the Holy Spirit via his word and power = for this reason he will be called the Son of God = NOT yet.
God is the Father of Jesus = literally, there are no two ways about it.Gal 4:4 - But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born out of a woman, born under the law, (Inter).

Hence, he is not a literal son, as per in the same way as a human.

That is the clear time stamp of WHEN the Son was sent, and this is not saying from heaven.

Now then, I'm not sure whether we even have any clear Bible verses, to even show whether he was even of Mary's egg.
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"The express image of his father"

You are quoting Heb and verses 1 - 3 are clearly all about the various ways that the God and Father words were expressed forth.
God spoke IN the prophets and IN the Son - John 14:10 -> hearing the Fathers words coming from Jesus, Jesus deemed them as seeing (perceiving - Inter) the Father.
He was raised by God in his word Due 18:18 and as they are deemed as Spirit, by the time of his Baptism, he would of had them without measure.
He was given the Spirit without measure, for the purpose of speaking the Father words Luke 4:18, John 3:34, resulting in -> when he expressed them out, he Became the express image of God's Person - Word, The Word 1:1, who Jesus is of and named The Word OF God.Hence The Word = Father and The Word of God is the Son.
Word -> image of -> Word of God.
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"Proverbs 8"

Yea right, She wisdom becomes Jesus in the land of fairies. LOL.
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"Gen 1.1 john1.1 the list goes on and on."

John 1:1 is NOT Gens, there is NO "The" in John 1:1, verses 1 & 2 are The God's logos/plans and shown to have been expressed out by him by 1:3
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"All sents, sendings are after he was raised in the word Due 18:18, Luke 2:40, 52 where he then grew in favor with God and was Baptized and sent into the world, just as the Clear example in John 17:18 shows.

Gal 4:4 Unquestionably sets the time stamp of when he was sent, as above here."

"Well of course it does,he had to become a human and a that entails

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Philipians 2.7"

None of that address's the point of my post there -> you do NOT have to pre-exist to be sent.
"Made in the likeness of men" = his conception/birth from Mary.
Form of a servant and demonstrated this by washing others feet and then said -> I have given you an example to which you should follow -> hence the Phil writer picks up on this -> Let this mind be in you which was in Jesus.

Absolutely ZERO in these passages are related to a pre-existing Jesus, you are following planted seeds.
The form of God aspect, as in how and why, can be clearly shown from the Bible with many verses.


"I would love to see your creativity with the above phil 2.7 and how you do word gymnastics on that."The only creativity, is the version you posted, which you've obviously adopted and the gymnastics is, you incorrectly aligning the message of the man Jesus, in the here and now of the times, to a pre-existing one, which the verse shows no hint of it.
Let this mind be in you which was in Jesus, hmmm, mind of a pre-existing Jesus = Ya better think again.

So lets US let the Inter do what you call gymnastics, you know that Truth stuff.
2:7 - but himself emptied, form of a servant haven taken, in the likeness of men having become.

Form of God and what that meant, is what he emptied, instead of big noting himself, because of the following, as to why he was in the form of God.
1. John 1:1 and God (Father) was the Word, who raised Jesus in his word Deu 18:18, resulting in Jesus having the word without measure, so when he expressed them out, he became the express image of God's person - Heb 1:3, John 14:10.
2. All power etc was given to him.
3. God did all the miracles through Jesus Acts 2:22

Hence, the likes of that and more, made him in God's form, but he didn't let this go to his head, and became like the least of them, and washed others feet.
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"

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"

Every time you quote this, I am totally astounded, you cherry pick and abandon Clear messages in the same Book, and totally ignore that your above quote without question, is speaking of AFTER the cross, exalted and glorified etc.

Hence -> "Sorry the bible will dissapoint you on this, not me"

Heb 2:9 - But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

The making here is referring to non other than his all time beginnings, birth from Mary.
NO WAY is the verse even hinting at, that he was reduced from something greater and if you claim that is the case, then you are abandoning the clear truth and adding to the Bible.

5. This day = a Psa prophesy, of a future event yet to happen = NO begotten Son before Mary.
Again being a Father, would suggest after his resurrection.
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"Pre existent son, the next verse says this son got sent to earth"

As you quoted, the next verse says ZERO of a sort.
And your verse after that, for what you're trying to use if for or claim, is absolutely staggering and rather very surprising, but then again????????

"10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:"

Firstly, Lord should NOT be there, Yehowah should have been carried over from the NT, so you in turn are following the Jews mess.

Your above quote 10, is taken from the OT and the one in discussion there is Clearly Yehowah.
Psa 102:25 - Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. = Yehowah's.
Neh 9:6 - You alone are Yehowah; You have made heaven, The heaven of heavens, with all their host, The earth and everything on it, The seas and all that is in them, And You preserve them all. The host of heaven worships You.

Isa 44:24 - Thus saith Yehowah, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I Yehowah that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Hence in Heb 1:9, you need to pay attention to who the subject become about = God, who shows up as Yehowah in 10
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"Consistsnt with john 1.1 and gen 1"

Show me a single verse that shows Jesus spoke creation into being BECAUSE, if you claim he is the Word, 1:3 DEMANDS that you show this, you cannot separate these 3 verses.
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""Goodness me, we have many prophesies of the future one and not a single one even Hints at, this one pre-existed in some form, who would come down and take upon flesh or even more crazy, enter the womb of Mary."

"You dont even come close on that one
Before Abraham was ,i am
Very sad comment,ive addressed this adnauseum"

How on earth does this Abraham address the Actual OT prophesies, the subject I raise in MY words here, your quote is not from the OT.
By Jo, it this what you call answering someone's points = NOT? LOL

And you have well and truly had them countered with the BIBLE and those verses cannot be refuted, to say they don't answer it.
Gen 3:15 seed of the woman = before Abraham I am = I was, in NO WAY is Jesus linking himself to the I AM in Ex as you have previously, falsely claimed.
Rev 13:8 = Before Abraham I am.
Abraham didn't see My Day, that had not yet come, and neither is the verse to be taken as - Abraham saw me = RUBBISH is that the context in this passage.
So NO, you have not addressed this Bible reply.
Just because you repeat something, doesn't make it true.
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"Michael" = ONE OF the chief princes, and I have seen the abomination that some try and concoct out of "one" when following the same word is used and it is clearly, one as in like one God - singular.

I'm not even going to bother with the rest of the Michael nonsense.
The Bible truth is, Jesus was clearly LOWER than angels so he could suffer death, that was his all time beginnings.
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Numerous messages of yours and your interpretations, draw upon gross errors, for which you use for your roots, or footings, so naturally if their coming from a wrong footing, they will fail.
One being, Jesus had hands on in creation, not a chance, according to CLEAR Bible verses, and you use this for an enormous stepping stone.

@angusmcfangledang