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16/01/18
02:25
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Originally posted by pintohoo
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just a general comment here -- I have read what you have written a lot over the last year or so -
the major thing I disagree with you philosophically is that I get the feeling that you think that Marx's ideas are still absolutely on the nail -
whereas -- I believe that if Karl Marx reappeared today - right now and got his head around what we have now and what is coming -
I believe that he would think very differently for the future.
There should be zero argument that Marx and Engels were both absolutely brilliant and far ahead of their time -
what we really need is them to be here now -- IMO.
I believe that our future will require something completely different -- being, something absolutely radical, not thought of, certainly not refined and certainly untried.
Not only would they have the benefit of seeing how mankind have stuffed up every economic system we have had - but, they would more than likely have the brilliance to look to something completely out of the box.
I honestly do not think that their rules and thoughts that they had that century and a half plus ago will help us go forward from here -- also, whilst much of their thinking may well have been accurate for where we have been - we will be entering a totally different world - and, I don't mean by just a change in degree - I mean a total change in human age.
We will probably blunder forward trying to use the old teachings - but, IMO - all that will miserably fail, because mankind is about to have changes so profound that all historical economics will be thrown completely out the window.
It will not happen in 2 years - nor 20 years - but, by the time another century is gone -- things will just be so radically different that I seriously doubt if history will be of much use at all..
I remember seeing - I think it might have been in a movie - but, it might have been in KM house in Trier - he had a thought at one point early on and it went something like this --
the original price was set by how much pain and effort a man expended to ?? -whatever - get, do or whatever
ie. (something like - price = pain and effort)
now to me --------- that was one of the cornerstones of his thinking - very early I think -
now -------------- what if that all changed?
what if man could get or do anything or something with no pain and no effort ---
the entire 'price' theory gets turned on it's head -- it just doesn't exist anymore.
Will that possibly happen? - yes, that is the way many are headed -- something or somethings out of nothing
Will that probably happen? - IMO - give us 100 years and I believe we will have that - anyone will have that.
It's not really IMO an 'if' -- it's a when -- doesn't really matter if it's 20 years or 100 years or 200 years -
it will happen.
we shall see - IMO - it's the path towards that that will be painful -- and, I only think it will be painful because of human stupidity ------------- not human nature - just stupidity - the lack of vision - which will cloud the real way and allow human nature to do what it does best ------------ destroy.
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Marx's Capital is more relevant to today that it was when he wrote it. He lays out the laws of motion of capitalism, and these don't change. There cannot be any freedom as you say -
"what if man could get or do anything or something with no pain and no effort ---
the entire 'price' theory gets turned on it's head -- it just doesn't exist anymore."
That's bollocks because the productive capacity already exists to accomplish this, but the surplus value is confiscated by capitalists (also by the state then, for the military industrial complex, look at the assassination of JFK because he was going to withdraw from Vietnam).
Price theory, actually you do have a point there with automation which proves Marx correct yet again. As you say, if there is no labour in the cost of making commodities there cannot be any price - that is the labour theory of value!
But that is feature of capitalist wage labour, there was no price on slave labour in Roman times and we still have a price on land and natural resources. The price is the ransom note.