fort knox bullion bars show up in dubai, page-22

OK, I'll repost and (mods) do my best to take out the 'bait' or 'flame' or whatever it was.

KS - That is an average post in my eyes which shows a lack of understanding of the gold market and an inability to look past the obvious and acknowledge the facts.

Generally I leave your posts alone (which sometimes lack in analysis and simply say Gold index down again, or gold down so gold index will again get hammered today) but I feel I need to reply to this one.

'Plunge Protection Team which is a mysterious & unknown group of people who keep Gold depressed so the US currency (& other fiat currencies) are not shown for what they are i.e. worthless. '

Even the President (though he is a moron) has acknowledged the existence of the PPT and for your information it was established after 1987 to prevent episodes like Black Friday. To suggest this is a mysterious and unknown group and to incinuate that it is a conspiracy is laughable and indicates an inability to accept the known facts. Its members include the Fed head, Treasury Secretary and chairman of the SEC amongst others.

'The various Central banks, US Treasury, etc that dont really have any Gold left as its all been sold or leased out but they don't want the market to know this as the truth would cause a run on various currencies.'

There is ample evidence that US gold reserves are leased. Go and do some serious research before you present that as a conspiracy theory. Start with Greenspans speech where he STATED ON RECORD that the Fed stands ready to lease gold onto the market should the price of gold rise. I'm not arguing here that this is for 'manipulative purposes' (though I believe it is), just that gold is leased. Coin melt bars (gold confiscated in '33 and melted into bars) and Fort Knox stamped gold are showing up in various places around the world confirming such leasing if Greenspan isn't enough for you. Do you have such an intimate knowledge of the gold market and the ability to be everywhere to confirm this is not the case.......I would think not.

On another note, an Audit would clear that up.......hhmmmmm

'They also manipulate the POG down'

Manipulation can only occur with concentration (in my opinion). Go and look at the CFTC's OWN figures and get back to me with the %'s held by 2 or 3 US banks. This doesn't confirm manipulation but concentration of that amount leaves open the possibility at the very least.

'Comex market that trades Gold but doesn't have the Gold to support the paper trades so you can't or shouldn't ask for physical settlement.'

I'm shaking my head in disbelief here. IT DOESN'T have the supply to settle every long position that is currently in place. FACT. Do the sums, OI just below 300,000 contracts, warehouse stocks just above 8 million oz. (each contract is for 100oz)

Its has also been reported from a NUMBER of different sources that calls have been made recently by COMEX staff to those looking for delivery to convinve them otherwise. Or again are you in so many places at once that you can confirm that this is not occuring.....at all?

Sometimes one needs to look through the smoke to see the fire....

Much of the information that I post on the Gold thread comes from (Le Met) a vast network of people worldwide who have various connections to the various gold markets (ex futures traders, bullion dealers, gold shop owners, refiners, miners, retail purchasers etc). I'm guessing their knowledge is not only far greater than yours (ours) but their connections within the gold markets are far broader than yours (ours).

HC is a place for posting fact, and opinion. Usually people try and provide sound analysis when posting opinion. I feel your post overlooked fact and was pretty scant on analysis.


END


Now Grov - thanks, fair points and naturally I'd like an opportunity to 'rebut'

Firstly, conspiracy theory def. In my opinion (not wiki or anything else) is simply an opinion or thought that is not accepted by the mainstream. That DOES not mean it is wrong, and it does not mean it should be lumped into the usual 'conspiracy' bag (crazy out of this world stuff. Aliens etc). Each should be taken on its merit and available evidence.

It is indeed very difficult to confirm what is going on out there. Personally I try and look at it from a 'police prosecution' kind of angle. First and foremost is MOTIVE. Don't really want to have to go into this one as its a pretty big bit, but I think many could agree that there would be a motive for the price of gold to be at least 'leaned on'. Most of it has to do with keeping interest rates low enabling huge profits to be made elsewhere (more than it costs to lean on the POG). See GATA.org or a peice which I think its called Gibson's Paradox or something of the like written by former Treasury Secretary or TS understudy Larry Summers (possibly going to be part of Obama's team.)

In my eyes, on top of a big motive, there is more 'circumstansial evidence' than has been used to convict many a person and bang them up for years. Anyway, Grov, yes I acknowledge the RBA paper that I pointed you to and yes you are correct. Here maybe my memory betrays me, but I think (at least this is where I sit now) that that simply shows that governments of CB's intervene in currency markets. I may have made a mistake to use it to suggest manipulation, but lets exchanage that for intervene if you like.

There is a VERY fine line (in my eyes) between the words intervene and manipulate, so much so that I feel the can often (maybe not always) be interchangeable. Allow me to digress slightly. Anyone who has been awake these last six months would HAVE to agree CB's and Gov's have intervened (do I have to list them?) and I think a large case could be made for manipulation. The debate really is whether that has been done 'surreptitiously', but that is for another time. So for me for anyone to stand there and see the intervention/manipulation in many markets (talking US here) and then deny that there is none in PM markets is just niave. All other markets but not gold and silver......c'mon.....????


Part of the problem I find is that people just lump the thought of manipulation of PM markets into the 'conspiracy theory camp'. Very few, you excepted Grov, have actually taken the time to understand the entire scenario. Like I mentioned earlier the majority of it has, in keeping gold or PM's low, with the ability to keep interest rates low (while keeping the USD higher than it should be) and earning huge profits in interest rate market derivatives. Wont go into that, just want to say that TOO many just say ahhh conspiracy theory, yet don't actually understand what the whole thing is about. Too hard basket...easier to call it a conspiracy or so.

Very few (Nadler is certainly not one of them) of those who don't 'subscribe to the conspiracy camp' actually argue solid reasoned arguments against it, they just do like I suggest above - label it a conspiracy theory. Only 1 person in 10 years has taken the stage to debate Bill Murphy and he has an OPEN invitation to ANYONE at ANYTIME to debate him on the subject.

Now Grov, I don't mean to be harsh, maybe the last post was - sorry KS, but I really did feel that the post ignored actual facts and evidence and just went straight to the 'conspiracy bag'. The PPT does exist, like it or not. There is a MOUNTAIN of evidence for gold leasing (surreptitiously or not can be debated), but gold is leased - they have lease rates for gods sake. To not acknowledge that there is a strong case that can be mounted that this is for somewhat 'dubious' purposes is to simply close ones mind.

Lets be honest here. There is MOTIVE. There is also a huge amount of circumstantial evidence - enough to put people away if it were a murder case or whatever. So for anyone to suggest this is just conspiracy theory garbage is in my mind, simply being closed minded in the extreme.

Now re the Fort Knox gold showing up in Dubai. This was an email sent to BIll Murphy. People must understand that GATA is the leading organisation in the world for the fight against precious metal manipulation. They have developed a VERY large network of associates, members, subscribers, industry collegues, traders, insiders etc etc etc. (They detailed official chinese authorities on the issue) If any organisation in the world is going to hear this stuff first its GATA. So for 1 individual to poo poo it I simply say, how can you? How can you say ahh thats just more conspiracy crap. GATA were the first to note coin melt bars appearing and now there have been three mentions of it I have come across.

Finally, and of course this proves nothing, but the weight it lends cannot be poo pooed. Even Richard Russell has changed his tune. And he certainly did not subscribe to the GATA point of view. Until NOW - Food for thought....you would think so.

I just ask people to understand the subject matter before just labeling it as conspiracy theory, sorry if it offended. There is FAR more to the whole thing than MANY people think.

This is a decent place to start, but there much more to read if you want to: http://www.gata.org/node/6519