Is the Bible True?, page-567

No, I'm not trying to ask the question: who created God?
I'm trying to address the points that both you and MrGordon make.

You both essentially say that nothing exists that had a cause or creator, but then don't attempt to address the issue that if this is the case then the first cause or creator must have had a cause or creator.

I'm not referring to empirical evidence but logic and philosophy.

You say that you "have made copious attempts at trying to fire in you some kind of deeper insight than this constant request for empirical evidence" and yet you seem to me be happy to wave away a my attempts at a deeper insight into existence by claiming that "there must be a preexistent God, an uncreated, unchanging state of God. We too must be preexistent but we are subject to change. Everything other than God is subject to change. There is no hard evidence for this and never will be. It's a leap of faith. I know this word is subject to derision, and dictionary meanings, but I'm sorry to say that it is an essential part of life."

When theists use the term faith this, in my experience, stops any meaningfull discussion it its tracks.

The same applies to the statement: "Nobody can ever offer you a key to spiritual insight. I'm sure you can't imagine that it might exist. If you wait for the evidence you require then your waiting will be eternal, because the evidence is meant to be subtle."

To me this all sounds very much like the childlike way that you say bible believers dismiss science. But when I don't dismiss science you say to me: I have made copious attempts at trying to fire in you some kind of deeper insight than this constant request for empirical evidence.
In any case as I pointed out I was looking at the issue that both you and MrGordon raise from a logical an philosophical point of view. To me your insistence that you are right about your take on a Creative Force / God - you seem to use a number of terms interchangeably - and some sort of unknowable spiritual existence places a very real cap on discussions on the "great thoughts and thinkers of humanity"

I nearly just deleted this post and let it be, because it is probably harsh. For better or for worse I'll click on the "Post Message" button.