I think this carries on, in part, from one of my first postings here on HC about Blind Faith, the meaning of Scriptures isn't always apparent at first reading/listening and indeed some/many still don’t understand fully even now, including myself as a recent revert to Islam. But does that exclude believers from trying to change their character to become more righteous, I believe not, its a process. Jesus said follow to his disciples and they just followed.
In the beginning there were no texts at all for the Qur’an (just written down on bones/parchments, when being revealed over the 23 years, but collated into a book within Muhammad’s time and confirmed by the messenger of God as authentic) it was meant to be recited from its inception to help in its preservation.
As for the Bible at present, sixty-six individual books, written on three continents, in three different languages, over a period of approximately 1500 years, by more than 40 authors who came from many walks of life, can belief in Jesus be the True Christian Saviour? Some Christians we are told in the Qur’an will be deemed righteous – three types of Christian in the Qur’an, best read for yourself.
I tend to agree with TJ jordan 31
st March reply to Wotsup, religion is doing something, feeding the hungry/poor, visit the sick and good deeds not just handing out cash and of course to include acts of worship (praying/fasting), the later to change ones character. Good deeds alone are not enough, you need to believe to be righteous in God’s eyes.
Quran 2:1/2:6-2:10 “This Book is not to be doubted…. As for the unbelievers, it is the same whether or not you forewarn them; they will not have faith. God has set a seal upon their hearts and ears; their sight is dimmed and grievous punishment awaits them.”
Anyway I recap the discussion between Copperbod and Wafflehead from last weekend:-
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Copperbod, 31st March :-
“How can anyone seriously claim that the Bible was somehow preserved as the inerrant "word of God" through all the various multitude of processes including multiple translations, cultural factors, different versions, writings of different early streams that were left in or out, deliberate manipulation to suit an agenda etc etc.
Even if that process is ignored the question remains which Bible version and translation is inerrant ? There are plenty who claim that the KJV in English is the only one ... which version of KJV ?
The JW claim their version is the pure one so why wasn't it available thousands of years earlier.
This supposed inerrant word cannot even settle whether Jesus was God or the Son of God or an Archangel or resurrected in a spiritual body or physical body and whether he died so that all men would be saved or only those who believed in him etc etc.
Just in case WWW is reading, the Muslim claim that the Quran is also the inerrant word of Allah is equally preposterous. Even apart from the mass of the Quran which relates to cultural and other behavioural rules and regulations, how could the written Human word convey even a shadow of the mind of God.
(talking of shadows – Qur’an:16.48. Do they not look at Allah’s creation, (even) among (inanimate) things, - How their (very) shadows turn round from the right and the left, prostrating themselves to Allah, and that in the humblest manner).
Written inspired scripture has it's purpose and place but to claim it as the inerrant word of the Creator of the Universe is just too preposterous to be taken seriously.
Wafflehead 31st March:- “too preposterous to be taken seriously
Unless you take it seriously!
Now I could go on for days about the idiocy of religion and you doubt that millions could believe that the Bible or the Quran is the absolute inerrant word of God?
You need to let your incredulity off the chain a bit. There is so much more out there that is, "too preposterous" and yet the masses can't get enough of it. Did I mention tea-leaf readers, tarot cards, horoscopes, lucky rabbits feet, horseshoes, lucky numbers, feng shui, mediums, etc, etc, etc.”
"Now I could go on for days about the idiocy of religion and you doubt that millions could believe that the Bible or the Quran is the absolute inerrant word of God?"
Copperbod 31st March “It was referring specifically to the claim that the Bible or Quran or other "Holy" scripture was the inerrant word of God. It is preposterous as are many other Human beliefs and religions are a great source, though some of their beliefs and practices may qualify as the lessor of two evils.
I think most Christians don't think about it too much and would quickly be out of their depth if someone bothered to point out to them why it is preposterous. Many Christians regard the Bible as inspired but not the inerrant word of God. That seems mostly to be a claim used by those who have nothing but the Bible, in order to make themselves feel chosen and able to preach at others with fake authority.
In general I have a reasonably broad and researched view of Human behaviour. Much of it causes a great deal of head shaking, disbelief, deep sighing and sometimes sorrow. However, to take that as the only aspect of Human existence would probably be a speedy ticket to the loony bin or worse.
Balance is not just a case of looking for "positive" Human accomplishments but understanding the wider purpose of Human life.”
Waffle head 1st April “I understood what you were saying, religion is a special case. There's almost this competitive streak to show who has the most faith, who is the most humble or reverential and who can exude the most fake, unqualified devotion to an imaginary being, imaginary in that everything we know about the nature of God is completely imaginary.
Yes competitive streak not a good trait, as soon as a Muslim and a Christian sit down together, one will say your Bible has been altered and the other that you don’t have a Saviour and that’s the only way, by belief in Jesus Christ.
To then suggest that God could be contained in a book written by human hands in some pure, unadulterated form, with words invented by humans and then add in all those other contaminants as you previously mentioned, such as 2000 years, etc is preposterous.
I can accept that some essence of inspiration still exists in such works, but human inspiration has never been, nor will ever be God's inerrant word.
My point was that humans have weaknesses and grovelling to authority, be it church or state is one of them. Being religiously stupid, or lacking discernment is taken for faith and devotion. It welcomes you into the fold and you belong all warm and safe.”
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That’s a lot of
“preposterous”, you can repeat many times but, as a Muslim you have to believe that the Qur’an is the inerrant word of God and believe in the Holy Books (the Bible in its original form before being altered of course – but you would need to check that with the Mother Book in heaven – if you believe in heaven) -
And truly, it is in the Mother of the Book, in Our Presence, high in dignity, and full of wisdom. (Surat az-Zukhruf: 43:4)… with Him is the Mother of the Book. (Surat ar-Ra'd: 13:39). We possess an all-preserving Book (Surah Qaf:50:4)
Muslims have six main beliefs:-
Belief in Allah as the one and only God.
Belief in angels.
Belief in the holy books.
Belief in the Prophets... e.g. Adam, Ibrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses), Dawud (David), Isa (Jesus). ...
Belief in the Day of Judgement... ...
Belief in Predestination..
Science in the Qur’an as proof the word of God:-
https://www.whyislam.org/on-faith/the-quran-and-modern-science-3/
Many other websites debunking Science in the Qur’an as proof that it was not divine and human created words, I’m no Scientist, but I’ll try to explain from the Qur’an in the first instance in reply to any question.
TJ jordan 31st March in reply to Wotsup, “It’s Ok you don’t believe Jesus still heals the sick today or you would have meet up. You can know every word of the Bible but unless you put your faith into action you have nothing. I pray that one day you will be filled with the Holy Spirit and start using the gifts God gave us. Muslims come at night to our outreaches in secret and ask us to pray for them and sick family members.”
I find this very odd to ask others to pray for them, Muslims should be praying to Allah, maybe you can ask them next time what are the six articles of faith – as as listed above – I guess they cannot answer. Sometimes Muslims ask older family members to prayer for them prior to an operation, but its normal to ask for everything direct to Allah, the all knowing all seeing – nothing is secret.
Yes good to put one’s faith into action and help others whatever your sect/religion, but to be righteous you need to believe. ISLAM the religion of Peace, I Shall Love All Mankind.
Top 20 religions in numbers,
and the hypocrites, even in the Non-religious sect – my other first HC posting aimed at Unbelievers – “Let Us Pray” – seeking when/how often you pray when in distress/danger – not many replied then, maybe as I was new?
Christianity (2.1 billion)
Islam (1.3 billion)
Non-religious (Secular/Agnostic/Atheist) (1.1 billion)
Hinduism (900 million)
Chinese traditional religion (394 million)
Buddhism 376 million
Primal-indigenous (300 million)
African traditional and Diasporic (100 million)
Sikhism (23 million)
Juche (19 million)
Spiritism (15 million)
Judaism (14 million)
Bahai (7 million)
Jainism (4.2 million)
Shinto (4 million)
Cao Dai (4 million)
Zoroastrianism (2.6 million)
Tenrikyo (2 million)
Neo-Paganism (1 million)
Unitarian-Universalism (800,000)
