some sanity in israel
Ariel Sharon to go ahead with Gaza withdrawal PRINT FRIENDLY EMAIL STORY The World Today - Thursday, 17 June , 2004 12:30:00 Reporter: Eleanor Hall ELEANOR HALL: With the dropping of the bribery case against him this week, Israel's Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is now free to focus on pushing forward with his plan to withdraw from the Gaza strip.
He shocked the world when he announced that he would unilaterally pull back from Gaza and dismantle the settlements there, especially as he was one of the key architects of the settler movement. And he's facing enormous opposition from within his own conservative coalition over the plan.
Of course, some critics on the other side of politics see the plan as simply a smokescreen for Israel withdrawing from one section of the occupied territories while the Government consolidates its hold on another – the West Bank.
But whether it is cynical or genuine, there is little question that Mr Sharon's move is bold and potentially personally very dangerous for him, given Israel's history of Prime Ministerial assassination.
And a former member of the Israeli Parliament who is visiting Australia this week, says whether it succeeds or not, Prime Minister Sharon's decision to pull out of Gaza will change the shape of the Middle East.
A politician from the left of centre Meretz Party, Naomi Chazan was a member of the Knesset from 1992 until last year, and was deputy speaker for much of that time. She is in Australia as a guest of the Zionist Federation of Australia and she joins us now in our Sydney studio.
Ms Chazan, welcome to Australia and thankyou very much for coming into the ABC.
NAOMI CHAZAN: Thank you for having me.
ELEANOR HALL: Now, you said in a speech that you gave in Canada last month that Ariel Sharon's Gaza plan will change the shape of the Middle East. That's a big claim, why do you see this move as so significant?
NAOMI CHAZAN: I think it is so significant because it essentially demonstrates that there's been a seismic shift in Israeli public opinion and that 70 per cent of Israeli public understands now that Israel cannot continue to hold on to the territories and maintain its viability as a democratic state with a Jewish majority, and the fact that Mr Sharon is actually leading this movement.
From a very right wing government, I think it is indication of the fact that the issue is no longer whether we're moving towards a two state solution – I think we are moving towards a two state solution – the issue is much more whether we will be able to achieve a just two state solution, which is connected with a peace agreement.
ELEANOR HALL: Given the political difficulties it is creating for Mr Sharon and the personal danger that it potentially puts him in, why do you think he is doing this now?
NAOMI CHAZAN: I think he has understood the message that frankly my party and people on the left in Israel, the (inaudible) in Israel, has been trying to promote for many, many years, and that is a small, lean Israel, is actually an Israel that is strong, that is democratic and that has a future.
And that realisation, that acknowledgement of the fact that we have to withdraw in order to maintain ourselves is crucial. Why has he done it? I think it's dawned on him, he said it himself. He said, "We can no longer occupy another people against their will."
ELEANOR HALL: So you really think there has been a dramatic sort of, a 'road to Damascus' type transformation in Ariel Sharon?
NAOMI CHAZAN: I don't know if it is a road to Damascus transformation or not, I think he is extraordinarily pragmatic. And I think this is the correct, pragmatic, rational decision and he has reached it. And for that I really have to take my hat off to him, even though I didn't vote for him.
ELEANOR HALL: So why is the Left in Israel not fully supporting this plan?
NAOMI CHAZAN: Because a withdrawal from Gaza alone is not good enough. Withdrawal from Gaza has to be connected to a withdrawal from the West Bank as well, and if we have a unilateral withdrawal, without a peace agreement, then we haven't done as much as we think we've done.
I am still sceptical about the outcome because I think the important question is not whether to support or not support disengagement, but how to link the disengagement from Gaza to a negotiating process which will bring about a real resolution to the conflict.
That's the challenge, that's the issue. I'm not sure Mr Sharon can complete the process, I'm happy he's begun it.
ELEANOR HALL: What is the alternative, though? Withdrawing from part of the occupied territories at least and dismantling the settlements, these are moves that your party has called for, it's at least a step in the right direction. Why not back that before forcing him to agree to the whole peace proposal?
NAOMI CHAZAN: We're not backing that. We are backing the withdrawal, we are backing the dismantling of the settlement. We are not backing the continuing constriction of the security barrier, or wall, or fence, depending how you want to define it, because it goes along a route which is politically problematic.
So I think the important thing is to unpack, to deconstruct the Sharon plan, and to push him that one step forward towards the negotiating table. Withdrawal alone will bring some relief, what will bring a resolution is a signed peace agreement, and that can only be achieved by talking to your partner.
ELEANOR HALL: So you've seen him make a dramatic turn around one issue, do you think it is possible that you could change Ariel Sharon's mind on the building of the fence and the settlements in the West Bank?
NAOMU CHAZAN: I'm not sure about the building of the fence, and part of the plan by the way, is removal of four settlements in the West Bank, but that's not good enough. There's 60, 70 settlements in the West Bank and that's what we are talking about.
Because unless there's a viable Palestinian state alongside Israel, frankly Israel will not live in peace and the Palestinians will not live in peace. We will not be able to stop the craziness which has engulfed us for the past three-and-a-half years.
ELEANOR HALL: What about the argument that some people make, that it's all very well to make these moves unilaterally, but Israel rally should be negotiating with the Palestinians over this?
NAOMI CHAZAN: Well, I think that's precisely the point I made, that unilateralism can only go so far, and unless there is an agreement on the other side, there really can not be a permanent settlement, and that is why we were promoting negotiations.
People like myself were very heavily involved in the Geneva initiative, which is a model peace agreement between Israeli's and Palestinians, and I firmly believe that we have to return to the negotiating table.
A unilateral step means that you decide and the other side has to accept. In order for the other side to have to accept, one has to talk to the other side.
ELANOR HALL: In the United States this week, regional leaders supported the Bush administration, what the Bush administration is calling its "Broader Middle East Initiative". Now, does that provide any real hope for peace in the Middle East, particularly as it makes tackling the Israeli-Palestinian problem a top priority?
NAOMI CHAZAN: I am almost at a loss for words, which is a terrible thing to be on the radio. I admit, I'm not sure that the broader Middle East vision is really so serious. I think the United States has created a problem for itself and for the democratic world to a large extent, in the Middle East, by trying to impose what has to be internalised, and that is democracy.
I think that with the involvement of the international community in post war Iraq, there's a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel, and hopefully that will radiate to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict in the positive way, and also to a final resolution of the Arab Israeli conflict, because what is going on in our area essentially destabilises the entire region and I think it's high time that we resolved it.
Maybe the United States has turned a corner, and hopefully if it has then we will benefit from it and so will the Palestinians.
ELEANOR HALL: You sound somewhat sceptical though?
NAOMI CHAZAN: I… there are American elections, this is an election year in the United States and I just actually came from the United States so I will be happy to wait and see until November 2nd, if it happens, it will not be as bad as what the past year has wrought at least in the area of Iraq and its surroundings.
ELEANOR HALL: Now, you said in a speech you quoted earlier, that Ariel Sharon having deciding to pull out of Gaza, has brought Israel to a critical juncture in the Arab-Israeli dispute, possibly the most critical since the 1948 war of independence. What do you think are the chances that this turning point could finally lead to peace?
NAOMI CHAZAN: Look, I think they are very good. And that's the reason I think I'm here, and that's also what I said in Canada. I think this is a critical crossroads in the true sense of the term.
It is not a bombastic language alone and the reason is because I think there is a realisation that the political solution to the Arab-Israel conflict is the creation of a viable Palestinian state alongside Israel.
That has come into the Israeli psyche and to the Israeli mind almost with a vengeance during the past few months, and if that can be translated into fact I think that we're way ahead of where we have been since 1948.
There is a real prospect… anyway if I may say, I'm a politician and we really believe that we can make a difference and perhaps bring a little bit of justice to ourselves and to our neighbours.
ELENOR HALL: Just a final question, a personal question: are you ever embarrassed to be an Israeli?
NAOMI CHAZAN: Oh no, I'm not embarrassed to be an Israeli because in Israel I voice my opinions perhaps even more forcefully than sometimes these opinions are discussed outside of Israel.
I am proud to be an Israeli, I was born and brought up in Israel even though I sound otherwise, and to tell you the truth I am proud to be an Israeli but I want to make an Israel that I am proud of.
ELEANOR HALL: Naomi Chazan, it's been a pleasure talking to you.
NAOMI CHAZAN: Thank you.
ELEANOR HALL: Naomi Chazan, former politician in the Israeli Knesset.
NAOMI CHAZAN: And a future one as well, I hope.
ELEANOR HALL: Always a politician. Naomi Chazan, thanks very much for joining us.
