Tonio, Tonio, where for art thou, as the lights are on and no one is home.
I see you magically left out some serious keys, the following verse for one, which is clearly a translation, or another example of the verse you quoted and to be more deceptive, you left off the end of the verse which you quoted, which also shows it's a future event to come, as he certainly wasn't literally in heaven at the time he was speaking.
Never the less, I looked to the Inter and it's looking like a whole new story, interesting and maybe the both of us can just put aside our beliefs, hissing etc, re whether Jesus pre-existed or not etc.
Regardless of how we both understand the message of HOW Jesus actually come down from heaven, would you agree that regardless of which way, that if he hadn't come, no one (us) would ever enter heaven? =
The truth of what John 3:13 is about as per the Inter.
SO LETS US (NO NOT MAKE MAN
) RIGHTFULLY DIVIDE THE WORD.
But first I'll cover the translations we have.
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Logic and common sense tells us, his next message is an example of a heavenly thing, which he expects they will have no chance of grasping.
So ask yourself Tonio, WHERE in the Bible do we see it written, that while Jesus was here, he went to and fro from earth to heaven = NO WHERE, only that he come down somehow.
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
There has been NO ascending to heaven, he the 2nd Adam Man who is the discussion here, has not yet gone to the cross.
He also at the time of this message, was NOT literally in heaven, so how do YOU Tonio explain that away = FUTURE TENSE if you're going to believe and follow that translation?
This entire message has to be the future event yet to take place as I explained in my past post and supported by none other than Jesus's further example, another example of the above following;
Future HEAVENLY event, just as he covered above -> And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, = Future.
Based on the following truth, some of the above is irrelevant, so thanks Tonio for making me Look deeper into the matter -> God works in all ways and uses all sorts of people, to GET his word of truth out there, so get aboard the truth Train coming, Toot, toot
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Inter, the REAL truth, The word divided.
3:12 - 14 - If things earthly I have told you and not you believe, how if I tell you the heavenly, will you believe.
(Now he gives a heavenly example).
And no one (peoples) - to go up (or) -> ascend (future tense) into the heaven
if not (lest) the one out the heaven having come down, the Son the Man. Who is in the heaven.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus to be lifted up it
is necessary the Son of Man. (otherwise, no one (peoples) to go up, ascend).
"to go up" - "ascend"-> As of yet, this has not happened for people, as he's not been to the cross and become the firstborn from the dead.
There is no hint here that Jesus has gone up at some point, only having come down, and that coming down can be clearly shown from the Bible, that he didn't need to literally pre-exist, but lets not let that get in the way of what's clearly being shown here.
So the message is, if he hadn't come down, no one would ascend to heaven, no mention there of him having previously ascended, just as his Second example shows - re Moses's, foreshadow of a future event.
"Has" as per most translations 3:13 = past tense and there is
NO "has" in this verse.
ARE YOU GETTING THE PICTURE TONIO, HOW SEVERAL PLACES IN THE BIBLE, HAVE BEEN INCORRECTLY TRANSLATED, DUE TO PLANTED SEEDS DRIVING THE INTERPRETATIONS?
"No one to go up" -> John Ch 14 -
Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.
In My Father’s house are many mansions (rooms); if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
"Who is in the heaven." -> What could this mean as he clearly wasn't literally in heaven at the time of speaking?
John 17:24 - Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. = (In the mind and plans of the Father, who sees things not yet done, as though they already exist).
"be with Me where I am," -> Where was he at that point in time?
John 17:16 - They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Jesus following is speaking to non believers.
John 8:23 - And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
Hence the ones in 17:16 are deemed as of above, of God, of Heaven.
Eph 2:6 - [FONT=Roboto][COLOR=#001320][SIZE=16px]and raised [/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][BCOLOR=#ffffff][FONT=Roboto][COLOR=#001320][SIZE=16px]us[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/BCOLOR][FONT=Roboto][COLOR=#001320][SIZE=16px] up together, and made [/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][BCOLOR=#ffffff][FONT=Roboto][COLOR=#001320][SIZE=16px]us[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/BCOLOR][FONT=Roboto][COLOR=#001320][SIZE=16px] sit together in the heavenly [/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][BCOLOR=#ffffff][FONT=Roboto][COLOR=#001320][SIZE=16px]places[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/BCOLOR][FONT=Roboto][COLOR=#001320][SIZE=16px] in Christ Jesus,[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]
Col 2:12 - [FONT=Roboto][COLOR=#001320][SIZE=16px]buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with [/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][BCOLOR=#ffffff][FONT=Roboto][COLOR=#001320][SIZE=16px]Him[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/BCOLOR][FONT=Roboto][COLOR=#001320][SIZE=16px] through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]
"Who is in the heaven" -> Spiritually at the time Jesus was speaking in John 3:13, he would have been deemed as in Heaven, not of the world.
