re: A Basic History of Zionism and its Relation to Just a little...

re: A Basic History of Zionism and its Relation to Just a little rebuttal:

Subject A Basic History of Zionism and its Relation to Judaism ( 0 reads - 3 replies )
Posted 17/11/02 20:35
Member FallGuy

"Zionism is a dogmatic and discriminatory form of ideology that to me seems similar in some ways to fundamentalist Islam.'

Stated as a given - simply her opinion.

"Hanna Braun, London, September 2001
In order to understand the circumstances that led to the birth of Zionism I shall sketch an outline of the history of Judaism and the Jews.

Since biblical times Jewish communities lived in Arab lands, in Persia, India, East and North Africa and indeed in Palestine. With the destruction of the Temple and the final fall of their state in 70 AD many Jews were taken out of Judea and hence to Rome and the Diaspora. ......."

Seems the exile and the Diaspora gets short shrift and that the local jews are no longer jews but nice tame christians.

Well what about the redress of the exile process???

"This exclusivity was largely based on a sense of superiority common to Europeans of the time, who believed they were the only advanced and truly civilised society and in true colonial fashion looked down on "natives" or ignored them altogether. "

Where is exactly is the historical factual basis for this other than her own views??

"However, beyond that there was also a particular sense of superiority of Jews towards all non-Jews. This belief in innate Jewish superiority had a long tradition in religious Jewish thinking, central to which was the notion of the Jews as God's chosen people. "

First off, the exclusivity that Jews are "reknowned" for stems not so much because of an air of superiorty but rather as a survival mechanism. Jews are not permitted to marry outside the religion. There is a real fear that when one pairs prgroms, killings & genocide with assimilation that in a few generations there's no one left.

I agree it doesnt endear you as a race but it worked in its survival interests. And, after all, with friends like that who needs enemies, right??

Secondly, Jews cant be excommunicated - doesnt exist as a notion.

"The accepted thinking in the religious communities was that Jews must on no account mix with gentiles for fear of being contaminated and corrupted by them."

Absolute crap...judgemental bigoted stuff

"This notion was so deeply ingrained that it quite possibly still affected, albeit subconsciously, those Jews who had left the townships and had become educated and enlightened. "

Hannas' psychobabble

"Thus the early settlers from eastern Europe transferred the "Stettl" (townlet) mentality of segregation to Palestine..."

Crap - thats a nother name for ghetto!!! as if its what we as a people preferred....geeezzzzz

"The "father" of political Zionism, Theodore Herzl covere the Dreyfus affair who was falsely accused and convicted of treason (although he was acquitted and completely cleared some years later).....The case brought to light the strength of a strong streak of anti-Semitism prevalent in the upper echelons of the French Army and in the French press, with profound repercussions in emancipated Jewish circles.

Herzl himself despaired of the whole idea of emancipation and integration and felt that the only solution to anti-Semitism lay in a Jewish Homeland. "

Correct - and who can blame them. This was way before Nazi's too. And we needed to get the hell out of Europe which had harrassed, killed and otherwise made life miserable for its Jews.

"Immigration

("Aliyah"--ascent in Zionist ---Sorry Hanna its Hebrwe not Zionist)parlance)

took off in seriously large numbers with the rise of Hitler, who initially declared himself quite sympathetic to Zionism, as had other right-wing anti-Semites before him."

Yeah...get em out of here - anywhere'll do!

"In my view, this development was almost inevitable given the preconception of an exclusive Jewish state. Could we realistically conceive of a France purely for the French? England only for the English?"

Of course ya can - ask any English or French person with an historical connection and they will be fiercely nationalistic and admit that others can share a place in their country as long as they asssimilate and swear allegiance

Yeah yeah..not politically correct but thats the way it is and always will be

.....And that the Jews do it makes it wrong. Yeah right...what a surprise...

"In a post-colonial world the notion is completely unacceptable and ridiculous."

Post-colonial world?? Who says...those who have reaped the rewards of such a process and no would judge others who seek to preserve that which theyve paid for with the lives and blood of many??

"How then, can Israel and the majority of its citizens justify their claim and yet remain convinced that theirs is a modern, democratic society?"

Every society has its pecking order (look around) and all seek to displace themselves from the bottom and in so doing fervently enslave their replacements into the bottom niche. Israel may be doing so but they aint the Lone Ranger...but theyre the ones' pillaried for it

"The last resort, when all logical justifications fail, is that God has promised the land to his people, namely us. "

That aint the last resort...its the first one!!

"The religious establishment has gone along with the general flow and has, indeed, profited from it."

Stated as a negative. Judiasm and Jews are synonymous and over the ages its been the religion and the adherence to it that has allowed the Jews to continue to not only survive but prosper. I know it may sound elitist but the facts are the facts!

"Since the late 50's there has also been a notable and frightening change in the Orthodox community, which led to the establishment in 1974 of the "Gush Emunim" (the block of the faithful), initiated by Rabbi Tsvi Yehuda Kook the younger. This is the fundamentalist movement which believes in accepting the state of Israel and striving to make it entirely and exclusively Jewish."

I agree... dont agree with this movement

"In my view this is an extremely short-sighted and dangerous road, leading in the end to a fundamentalist theocracy much like that of the Taliban in Afghanistan."

Claptrap...but hey its her view

"It seems a bitter irony that a movement that initially saw itself as progressive, liberal and secular should find itself in an alliance with, and held to ransom by, the most illiberal reactionary forces."

Once again claptrap....."held ransom" - I dont think so though it reads well

"Zionism has now assumed the all-embracing mantle of righteousness. It claims to represent and to speak for all Jews and has adopted the slogan of "my country right or wrong." "

Zionism, as a term, is used by people such as her who have a position to put. Other countries call it nationalism!

And as for ""my country right or wrong" - frankly there's nothing really wrong with that and whilst at times its overstated, it it the view of most other people in most other countries.

"I fear that unless and until Israel is judged by the same criteria as other modern states, this is unlikely to change."

I'm with ya on that one baby.. Israel puts up with more than any other country on Earth - you dont have to agree but hey...I'm entitled to a view arent I ??