Here's a guy who seems to be taking a positive and balanced approach to the Middle East debacle imho.
Archives - July 27, 2005
Prince Hassan of Jordan Interview Prince Hassan of Jordan - brother of the legendary Hussein - is a leading political voice in the Muslim world. Like his nephew - the current King, Abdullah - Hassan has forged unusually close links with the West and even Israel. Recently though, he's warned that the situation in Iraq has deteriorated into civil war and - at odds, starkly, with the Blairs, Bushes and Howards of this world - he maintains that the London bombers were politically driven. The Prince has been watching as Britain comes to terms with the bombings and George Negus spoke to him late yesterday from London.
GEORGE NEGUS: Your Royal Highness, it's good to see you again and thank you very much for your time. PRINCE EL HASSAN BIN TALAL OF JORDAN: Thank you.
GEORGE NEGUS: We've just had a reporter in Leeds in the last few days and she met a lot of the friends of the men who have been named as the London suicide bombers. Those boys were incredibly angry, they were angry with the West generally. How do you, as a moderate Muslim leader, explain that incredible anger that the people in the north of England are feeling at the moment?
PRINCE HASSAN: I cannot understand the anger in terms other than a lack of inclusion on the one side in English society, and I think one can't be categorical about separating what's happening in situations of occupation in Afghanistan or in Iraq or in Palestine from the general feeling of frustration. In fact, there's a study done by a Professor Pape at the University of Chicago. 462 suicide bombings on his database from 1980 to the present day, most of them are about feelings of anger over occupation. Very few of them are actually a fundamentalist per se, occupation includes, of course, people like the Tamil Tigers and others.
GEORGE NEGUS: So you would see, and you would apparently agree, that the situation in the Middle East, Israel and the occupied territories, remains at the root of the causes of terrorism in the world at the moment?
PRINCE HASSAN: Well, I think it is, geopolitically, the crucial issue that has to be attended to, but there is no crisis avoidance thinking, unfortunately, in our part of the world, and in the world as a whole. It's all knee-jerk reactions and that's what I find extremely worrying. We make it up as we go along. And I think that, as far as the Middle East is concerned, we're no better than the Balkans, in fact, we're getting worse than the Balkans. We need a stability pack for the region where everybody steps up to the same template of international law.
GEORGE NEGUS: You sound like a busy man, advocating peace when the rest of the world is identifying the Islamic world with anything but peace, but what you're saying also places you at odds with Tony Blair who insists that the causes of terrorism is what he calls an evil ideology. You don't see eye to eye with him, obviously, on that score. It's not even ideology as you see it, it's politics.
PRINCE HASSAN: Well, exactly. As far as ideology is concerned, you know very well that certitude divides and I think people who carry ideologies - and I don't want to name names, whether in the West or in our part of the world - seem very similar to us - certitude divides. So I think that we're seeing a Middle East which is breaking up into a mosaic of ethnic minorities with countries like Israel possibly hoping to become a dominating minority in a mosaic of minorities. And I think the time has come for a code of conduct where we all say enough is enough and we all come to a political meeting. The end of the First World War was Versailles, the Second World War was the Yalta, we have not had an international conference on the interrelated thinking - Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan. It can't be one today and the other tomorrow and the streets of London the day after that.
GEORGE NEGUS: Do you think that the Blairs, Bushs and Howards of this world understand the mentality of the terrorist?
PRINCE HASSAN: I think they certainly understand the mentality of the terrorist and I think that, in the war on terror, I'm actually supportive of all the measures that are taken in that regard. However, at one and the same time, why are we not doing something for promoting the law of peace? The body of customary law could make a law of peace and I think the time has come to talk about an ethic of human solidarity, the time has come to talk about a Middle East region which is not just about unilateral militarism, but about humanitarian multilateralism.
GEORGE NEGUS: What you've said raises the point that a lot of people make, that they don't feel that the moderate Muslim leaders of the world, and that probably includes yourself, and the king, King Abdullah himself, are not actually taking the initiative enough on this.
PRINCE HASSAN: I think we are taking the lead as the recent conference hosted by the King proved in Jordan. We made it very clear - our position is condemnation of suicide bombing, wherever it may be. We don't have double standards, whether it's in Palestine or in the streets of London or in Bali or wherever it may be. However, unfortunately I sometimes feel that it's the moderates like ourselves who are the real radicals, especially as we see the West reaching out to establish a conversation with some of the Islamist groups. Now, if this listening is with the intention of developing a comprehensive peace in the region, that's one thing, but if it's going to end up kowtowing to these people and making them cult heroes so that they're the new wave to rule the region, then I think that all the regimes of the region have to be very wary of their friends, not only of their enemies. I once said to Shimon Peres when he was in power - he said, "You know, we're surrounded by enemies." I said to him, "You think you have problems, we're surrounded by friends."
GEORGE NEGUS: Is it too ridiculous to suggest that maybe we should be talking even to people like Osama bin Laden, and his ilk?
PRINCE HASSAN: Well, as I said earlier, I mean there has to be some yardstick of who you talk to. Those who are prepared to reject terror and to step up to the table on the basis of acceptance of international legality, you talk to him. I think the time has come very clearly to try and win - as with the Real IRA and Sinn Fein, the political movement or the political arm of movements, if they exist, from the people who are just dedicated to killing.
GEORGE NEGUS: Is the war on terror being won and is the situation in Iraq exacerbating that and making that even less likely to occur? Is it creating more terrorism than it's ever likely to get rid of?
PRINCE HASSAN: Well, as the Iraqi officials themselves are saying, there is an international war being fought on Iraqi soil and I think there's a lot of truth in that. And this is why I think the basic issue of nation building has to be attended to and there I think a facilitator has to promote a conversation between the different Iraqi factions.
GEORGE NEGUS: Do you think that the so-called coalition of the willing, which includes this country, should remain in Iraq or should they be out of there?
PRINCE HASSAN: Well, I think they should evolve into the coalition of the coherent and not only coherent in terms of what they say to each other but what they say to the Iraqi people and the people of the region. Nation building is an exercise which should be addressed, as I said, through developing a national discourse and I think that has to happen yesterday.
GEORGE NEGUS: You said that the Iraqis regard an international war as being fought on their soil but you have said that you believe what's going on in Iraq at the moment is a civil war, in fact.
PRINCE HASSAN: Well, I was asked, "Do I see it being heading towards a civil war?" and I said "Well, it's a matter of definition." I mean, if you see the number of Shia and Sunni killing each other, it is in that context civil strife of quite an advanced order.
GEORGE NEGUS: What would your advice be to this country? Are we likely to be the next terrorist target? Do you think we're on the hit list, as it were?
PRINCE HASSAN: Well, I think we're probably all on the hit list. I mean in that sense, moderate countries all over the world are targets and, obviously, your citizens have been sadly targeted in Bali, as I referred earlier.
GEORGE NEGUS: Your Royal Highness, it's good to talk to you again. Thank you very much for your time.
PRINCE HASSAN: Thank you, George, very much and thank all your listeners for giving me their patience and their kind attention.
