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"So then Tonio, according to your line of thinking, with the...

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tonio

913 Posts.

18/03/19

08:52

Post #: 37792799
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Originally posted by wotsup ↑

So here you go again Tonio, you make false claims, I defend them with the truth of the Bible of which you do not counter, but run away and hide under your rock, totally ignore them, the One Spirit of Truth.

Greek truth John 8:56 - Abraham the Father of you rejoiced (was full of joy, was glad) in that should see the day the my, and he saw and rejoiced. full of joy, was glad.

The above verse flies in the face of what you Tonio beleive about Jesus.

Clearly John is
NOT
saying that

1 - Jesus existed before Abraham was born

2 - Abraham saw Jesus and was glad

Clarity --> see & saw --> Greek --> Definition: to see, perceive, attend to
Usage: I see, look upon, experience, perceive, discern, beware.

How did and what did he perceive, experience, discern, beware;
Gen 15:1-5 - After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
And Abram said, LORD GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he (Jesus) that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Hence his name was changed to Abraham, which means, Father of many, (future context).
Just as Jesus NOW has the name, the Word of God, to represent the role that he did and what God had planed for him, name only.

Just like David was told in the following, which YOU totally ignore;
2 Sam 7:12-14 - And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
I will be his father, and he [B]shall be [/B]my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

What exactly is all the above referred to in the Bible and known by the likes of Abraham, David, Moses and Co;
Eph 3:9 - And to make all see what the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things.

What else was around about Jesus, (known as the Spirit of Jesus), before he literally existed at Mary's conception;
Titus 1:2 - In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before time eternal;
2 Tim 1:9 - Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before time eternal,
Eph 1:4 - According as he hath chosen us in him--> (God and Father of Jesus Eph1:3) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

So then Tonio, according to your line of thinking, with the abuse you do to these words of Jesus's in John 8:56, these ones here that the promise was made to, Eph & 2 Tim, they were around before Abraham = you silly boy, they were NOT around before him, just as Jesus was Not.
Jesus before Abraham was the hidden mystery, inner logos within the Almighty God and Father.

More examples of the Almighty God and Fathers inner logos, The Word, which cover messages about the future Jesus, before Abraham was born, the inner creation, conception --> creation foundation within the Almighty God and Father;
Rev 13:8 - And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 3:14 - And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Col 1:15 - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of creation.

All these verses are none other than in the mind and plans of God, his first thought in creation, were for the Future one, a Son to be, Jesus and NATURALLY, this was before Abraham was even thought of.
Hence --> John 8:58 - Said to them Jesus, Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.
This is absolutely only saying and no more and no less than, in the mind and plans of the Almighty God and Father as per all the references above, the plan of me, about me in the future context, was before Abraham was even thought of.
John 5:39 - Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.(Deu 18:18, Sam 7:12-14, etc etc).
Example, another - John 1:15 - John witness concerning Him, and he cried out, saying, This was He of whom I was saying, The (one) after me coming, precedence over me has, because before me He was.
(We know full well John was born before Jesus, which confirms John and Jesus are not speaking of a literal existing before Abraham, just as John is not speaking of Jesus literally existing before Himself. Just that in the mind and plans of God, Jesus was the first thought and precedence).

Example of Jesus having precedence and before John --> Due 18:18, 2 Sam 7:12-14 = all of the likes of these passages were before and precedence of the plans the Almighty God and Father had for the future John as in --> Isa 40:3 (Prophesy) - The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, (John) Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
(John does exactly this in the first 13 verses of John as they are ALL about and refer to, the Almighty God and Father only. He, John recaps on what was, makes the path, truth straight and while doing so, speaks of the future one coming).
Mal 3:1 - Behold, I will send my messenger (John) , and he shall prepare the way before me--> (Almighty God and Father): and the Lord (Jesus), whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger (John) of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD (Almighty God and Father) of hosts.

So John himself is making zero reference as to when he and Jesus literally existed, came into being, he is referring to none other than the mind and plans of the Almighty God and Fathers, and which of those plans, Him and Jesus were first and which has precedence, before the other. No more and no less.

Before Abraham, I am = has ZERO relevance to the OT verse where God simply says, I am that I am, or I am who I am.
Zero link of Jesus's words to this OT passage, two totally different topics and to suggest otherwise, never mind saying it, is to NOT be of God, The One Spirit of Truth.

So Tonio, when you actually check the Greek truth of the Peter passage which you ignored in the past, where in the past they walked in the Spirit of Jesus, it simply does not mean they walked in the literal Spirit of Jesus, as that simply means, refers to the plan of this future one, spirit of and guided via God's Holy Spirit as in, they searched the scriptures, God's plan, Hidden mystery.
Jesus's literal Spirit only came into existence at Mary = 2nd Adam, Man --> Body, Soul and Spirit and the Bible, not Tonio, is VERY clear, this only come about AFTER the 1st Adam and not before 1 Cor 15:46.
And the Bible and not Tonio, is very CLEAR, the Almighty God and Father, The Word, only spoke through and IN Jesus after His Baptism (Heb 1:1-2) where he received the Spirit/Word, the Godhead = Almighty God and Father without measure so he could FINISH the God and Fathers works, to bring the Word, words of eternal life into the world like never before, the purpose and message of the Book of John.
Jesus became the Temple, Hence the fulfillment of the prophesy, Immanuel, God with us when the future one, Jesus was to come = 2 of only.

Tonio, while you continue to hold onto the same seeds that beguiled Eve, you have no chance of seeing or finding the Truth and that is a certainty and promise covered in the Bible.

Expand

"So then Tonio, according to your line of thinking, with the abuse you do to these words of Jesus's in John 8:56, these ones here that the promise was made to, Eph & 2 Tim, they were around before Abraham = you silly boy, they were NOT around before him, just as Jesus was Not.
Jesus before Abraham was the hidden mystery, inner logos within the Almighty God and Father"

Wotsup,
You keep denying Jesus, as you have done since from the beginning

John 8:56-58
56“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple

1 - Jesus existed before Abraham was born
2 - Abraham saw Jesus and was glad
3- Jesus is the "I am" from the OT

Wotsup, a plain reading of the above verses shows that the Jews believed that Jesus was saying
that he was older than Abraham because they said

“You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

and when Jesus said the "I am" , they tried to stone him

John 8:39-40
39They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40“But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

Wotsup, in the above verses
Jesus is saying that the Pharisees' are seeking to kill him, but this is not something that Abraham tried to do
How would it be possible for Abraham to even consider killing Jesus
if Jesus did not exist in Abrahams' day?
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