sidney jones: "the hardliners are called thoifah m

TRACKING down terrorist networks in Indonesia is nothing new to Sydney Jones, director of the International Crisis Group in Indonesia. She released a paper titled, "Al Qaeda in Southeast Asia: the Case of the Ngruki Network in Indonesia", in August 2002, two months before bombs devastated Legian, on the Island of Bali. Then she researched and came up with a report (in Indonesian) "Terror Networks in Indonesia: How Jamaah Islamiyah Operates". Just two weeks before the second Bali bombing occurred, Sydney had just completed, "The Changing Face of Terrorism in Indonesia", a six-page research paper commissioned by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute


In her paper, Sydney, 53, expounds on the emergence of a new generation of
terrorists called Thoifah Muqatilah, recruited and trained by Jamaah Islamiyah
(JI) top figures like Noordin M. Top, Azahari and Zulkarnaen.

Sydney's views on JI are indeed controversial. Many believe her, but others
are critical of her conclusions. Last year she was expelled from Indonesia,
reportedly for leaking state secrets. But a few months later, she was allowed
back in Indonesia.

On Wednesday, two weeks ago, Sydney shared her views with journalists at the
Tempo office on topics such as the second Bali bombing and the Jamaah
Islamiyah movement. Excerpts:

What is the status of terrorist networks in Indonesia today?

Jamaah Islamiyah is far weaker today than three years ago. There used to be
four Mantiqis. Mantiqi I in Malaysia and Singapore is almost destroyed. The
leadership of Mantiqi III, covering Sulawesi and around East Kalimantan, has
broken up, although there are still members in Poso, Central Sulawesi and
Mindanao, southern Philippines. It is also possible that Mantiqi IV in Australia may
no longer exist. Meanwhile, Mantiqi II (Sumatra and Java), which represents the
majority of Jamaah Islamiyah, is seriously split.

How serious is the split?

Many JI members actually reject bombings. They see people like Hambali and
his followers as deviating from JI's true objectives. They regard all bombings,
from those that were exploded on Christmas Eve a few years back to the recent
one in Bali a few weeks ago, as having destroyed the organization. The
anti-Hambali people criticize Abu Bakar Ba'asyir because he seems reluctant to punish
Hambali. But there are others who disagree with this viewpoint. One group
rejects the bombings but is reluctant to bring in the perpetrators to the police.
Another group thinks it's time to destroy the organization and then report
them to the police. (Abu Bakar Ba'asyir has repeatedly denied his role in any
terrorist activity. "I am always linked to many case, including the Bali
bombing," he said. He said his relations with Hambali, who used to be his neighbor at
Sungai Manggis in Malaysia, only involved missionary activities-Ed.)

When did the split begin?

Since 1999, there were already differences of opinion between Hambali and
people who preferred structure. They regarded Hambali as acting beyond their
objectives.

What is the position of the hardliners within this organization?

That's what we don't know for sure, whether they have officially quit or
whether they have remained as a very militant wing.

You mentioned the emergence of a new generation. Who are they?

Three or four months ago, one of the very radical groups returned to the
fore. I understand they call themselves Thoifah Muqatilah. They are trying to
re-establish the Laskar Khos, which had broken up because many of them were
arrested. Their existence is to form the suicide bombers brigade. There were
indications that a few months ago, they were already planning a number of operations.
But I don't know where and who they all are. According to Nassir Abbas (head
of Mantiqi III-Ed.), the name Thoifah Muqatilah has been around since the
first Bali bombing

What is the role of Azahari and Noordin in this new organization?

We don't know for sure. They can either be the founders or the leaders. We
think Zulkarnaen, who used to be the JI military commander, is recruiting young
men to join Thoifah. Their concept is still unclear. What is certain, this
group exists and they are involved.

Are they really the new generation?

That could be the case, if we consider Noordin and Azahari as the first
generation of JI. The new recruits are considered as the second generation because
they are much younger. They study at JI schools or pesantren (Islamic boarding
schools), around 18 of them. One is an important university in Solo, Central
Java. When they want to contact each other, they get in touch with someone at
the university, which is also the JI headquarters in Central Java. This place
is really important because it is mentioned in the investigation records (of
those arrested-Ed.)

Where are these 18 schools located?

Most of them are in Java and Lombok. Some are in Lampung and on the border
between Aceh and North Sumatra.

How exactly are these schools involved?

We notice that the children of JI leaders are sent to these schools. There,
the best graduates are selected to take part in a special work program for
about a year. Out of a school with 30 students, two or three would be invited. As
members of the JI organization, they are paid and receive proper JI
supervision and training. Their fate in five years' time will depend on the situation in
Indonesia and the world, and the emergence of local political parties.

Would they be considered hardline JI or moderates?

They can be both. They usually enter through involvement in missionary
programs, but their aim is still to establish an Islamic state, albeit not all
resort to criminal activities.

Do the second Bali bombers come from this Thoifah Muqatilah?

They are possibly members of Thoifah but we don't know for sure. We know that
their activities tend to lead towards some kind of operation, but where and
when we can never tell. If there were indications that it would happen in Bali,
the embassies would have issued travel warnings. But this time, there were no
warnings at all. We will have to wait for what the police investigation
uncovers.

Were there signs that the second Bali bombing was the work of Azahari and
Noordin?

Suspicion certainly points at Noordin, Azahari and other groups. I can't tell
for sure whether this is the group from Banten or from other areas. But I
would be very surprised if it turns out that they were players outside of this
group of jihadists.
There is an impression that the second Bali bombing was not a focused
operation.

Unlike the first Bali bombing, most of the targets were not expatriates.

It's possible they came to Bali with little time to do any kind of survey. My
guess is that their targets in Bali would always comprise some expatriates
victims. That's why people say this second Bali bombing is not as devastating as
the Kuningan bomb. Not sensational enough.

Why was the method different? For example, they didn't use cars.

They calculated that car bombs were easily traced by forensic experts. At
Tentena (Central Sulawesi-Ed.), they didn't use a car bomb, and till today we
don't know who did it.

Are there links between terrorists in Indonesia and those overseas, like in
London?

I don't see any links. What happened in London, UK last July, was that they
succeeded in making that country tremble. I think they want to do the same in
Bali, that is by using backpacks and going inside restaurants. But I doubt
there are any direct links. What happened in Indonesia was 100 percent independent.

How are their relations with Al Qaeda?

I don't think there are links with Indonesia. I think it would be a mistake
to look at JI as Al Qaeda in Asia. There might have been close links when
Hambali was active and used to go back and forth between Indonesia, Malaysia,
Pakistan and Afghanistan.

At that time there were Al Qaeda people who came to Indonesia. But that was
two years ago.

What about their sources of funding?

For their everyday activities, they get their funds from their members' dues.
They also get contributions from sympathetic corporations. Meanwhile, for
each bombing operation, there seems to be a huge amount of funds from outside. We
know that for the first Bali bombing, about US$35,000 may have come from Al
Qaeda. Before the Marriott bombing, some A$10,000 was suddenly deposited in
their accounts. Even so, this doesn't mean the money came from Australia. Money
can be moved in any currency. For the Kuningan bombing, the amount I heard was
A$9,700 in cash. With regards to the latest case, investigations indicate that
the funding was much lower and that was a total of US$700.

Back to the anti-Hambali faction. Who are they?

This group is not necessarily a benign bunch. Their goal is an Islamic state
in Indonesia, but it needs to be built from a secure base, a qoidah aminah
where Islamic law can be fully applied. Not only is there not yet any such place
in Indonesia, but if there were, JI leaders believe it would encounter
resistance from the Indonesian government or from non-Muslims. They thus believe they
have to acquire the military capacity to protect themselves in the short
term, as well as to eventually take on the Indonesian state 25 or 30 years down
the road.

At this point, have they joined any formal organization or political party?

They previously wanted to make Poso as the first wing block to expand their
influence. But they have not achieved this yet.

So till now they have been using JI?

There are groups other than JI in Indonesia. There is the Banten ring, a part
of the KW 9 (Kartosuwiryo, conceiver of the Indonesian Islamic State
concept-Ed.), a splinter group of the Darul Islam.

What's the role of this Banten ring?

There are at least two or three KW 9 splinter groups. One of them is Abu
Totok. I can't see a clear connection between the Abu Totok group or Panji
Gumilang (leader of the Al-Zaytun pesantren at Indramayu, West Java) and other
terrorist groups. Maybe sooner or later they will meet, but it's not happening yet.
The role of the Banten ring emerged after the name Iqbal was identified as one
of the perpetrators of the first Bali bombing. (Panji Gumilang, in an
interview with Tempo a few years back, denied he or his pesantren was involved in
violent activities-Ed.)

What about the Kuningan bombing?

The Kuningan bombing was clearly the act of Rois alias Iwan Darmawan from
Bandung and his friends. They are all members of the Banten ring, which met the
JI at Poso. Some Banten people got to know JI through Imam Samudra. There
relations became closer at the JI training camp in Poso. I obtained information
that when Azahari needed people to bomb Kuningan, he came to one of the JI
members. He was introduced to Rois, whom they met at Poso (Tempo sources also
mention Azahari as knowing Rois since the training days in the Philippines, in
1997-Ed.).

Are there really new groups?

Yes. A number of different groups have emerged from the DI, JI and perhaps
remnants of the Laskar Jundullah at Poso and Makassar. This does not include
regional groups like the Mujahidin Kayamanya, or groups in Ambon. Their numbers
are small. How they are interlinked is not easy to explain. For example,
members of the Mujahidin Kayamanya, which took its name from a village in Poso, took
part in the attack at Seram last May. They came from Solo. I see the
involvement of an NGO here, but I must keep its name off the record. When the Ambon
conflict broke out, this NGO helped to disburse funds for the training of
mujahidin by JI instructors. Later they became the go-betweens in a complicated
structure between the JI, Darul Islam and other groups.

How does this network operate?

When they plan operations, they can use personal contact through this NGO
member, without going through organizations. For example, if according to Noordin
and Zahari, the Thoifah Muqatilah members need training, they could do it
elsewhere.

What about the Sumatra group?

We don't have enough information on the structure of groups over here. In
Serang, for example, of the eight people involved in the attack, there was a
member of the Riau DI. The problem is that in Riau, one can find the DI and the JI
as well, so it is unclear to which organization they should be affiliated to.
Lampung remains the JI base in Sumatra. But there are cells there too.
Meanwhile in Bengkulu, there is a Ngruki graduate who is building a foundation there.