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The gems of Revelation 21, page-318

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ppm56

5,657 Posts.

28/07/24

13:15

Post #: 74949696
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Originally posted by wotsup ↑

@ppm56

Is that word salad I'm seeing here , you know that term for DECOY that many of you use.
There will need to be a lot of more word salad to respectfully address yours.

"
Now for your question, we see in 2 Corinthians 13:14, the apostle Paul invokes the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, highlighting the equal divine status of the Holy Spirit. The same as with the Father and the Son, the 3 as one
"

Definition:
fellowship

Usage:
(lit: partnership) (a) contributory help, participation, (b) sharing in, communion, (c) spiritual fellowship, a fellowship in the spirit.

This is not showing the Holy Spirit here as a separate person and neither is it showing it is a separate person to the God here who IS the Father.
The Holy Spirit proceeding from the God and Father, is the means, channel, link so to speak that the Father, Son and people will be linked -> fellowship in this spirit, by means of.

Example in your own words -> "
The Holy Spirit works in the hearts of believers, transforming them into the likeness of Christ.
"
1 John 3:9 - Whoever has been born of God (Father = Holy Spirit) does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

You're NEVER born of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but God alone who is the Father, The Holy Spirit, the one Jesus defines independently of himself, as the only true God when he was here John 17:3.
He naturally makes NO reference to the Holy Spirit in 17:3, for obvious reasons.

Now according to you, that the word God is always Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are you seeing the nonsense here in that statement, if you apply it to God in 2 Cor 13:14?
---------------------

Show me a verse that says you need to know a Holy Spirit person for eternal life.
"The Holy Spirit works in the hearts of believers, transforming them into the likeness of Christ. This transformational work involves both moral and spiritual change, helping individuals to live according to God's will.
One needs to be sanctified to have eternal life, who does that, the holy Spirit
1 Peter 1:2
"...who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
through the sanctifying work of the Spirit,
to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance."..

We also get eternal life 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 emphasizes that believers’ bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, indicating that they are to live in a manner worthy of this sanctification. That we will have eternal life

The Holy Spirit is the Sanctifier in the Bible because of His vital role in transforming, empowering, and cleansing believers, leading them toward a life of holiness and obedience to God. Through the Spirit's work, believers are not only set apart for God's service but are also enabled to live out their faith authentically.'

Re my above request clarification -> "Holy Spirit person" on top of the persons Father and Son, as per Jesus's exact words 17:3, Father and Son ONLY.
None of this answers my request, the Holy Spirit which is the Father, only.
The Holy Spirit of the Father is an after event that comes to one, after accepting the Father and Son (full context of).
You do NOT need to know an independent person the Holy Spirit to be saved and NO verse says such.

You cannot tell me that Jesus would have not said so in 17:3 of that were the case.
-------------------
"
We also get eternal life 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 emphasizes that believers’ bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, indicating that they are to live in a manner worthy of this sanctification. That we will have eternal life
"

You fail to mention, that our bodies are also the temple of God which is the Father, Paul interchanges the Holy Spirit with the God and Father as they are one in the same.
Paul is NOT speaking of two persons or beings, dwelling in ones temple there, but the God and Father.
-------------------
"
First of all the purpose of the bible is not to start the Christian faith,
"

It's to keep them on track, on the truth trail and eternal life, means of can most definitely be found in it, way to it.
-----------------

If one existed, you cannot tell me that these verses wouldn't exist and keep a straight face
.

"First of all the purpose of the bible is not to start the Christian faith, its meant to help and to deepen our spiritual faith
The problem is Protestantism have thrown out the faith that was handed down and now using the bible to restart that faith and expecting everything or point a person might ask to justify themselves to be written down from all the bible bashing done in due course
"

That is nothing but a Clear deflection, decoy away from the clear and obvious point made.
-------------
"
If you are using this logic then you have to show that is the case the bible is written for, plus you also have to show where and how the first Christians used the bible the same way for their faith
"

The Bible records what they believed and what they did and it also covers the instructions, the way to eternal life.
And to know a Holy Spirit person as well as the Father and Son, is not in there and not a requirement.
--------------
Fair crack of the whip ppm, my comment, conclusion, is based on none other that YOUR words, you claim that I and the Father are one, supports Jesus claiming to be God or at least one of a three person God.

"Yeah wotsup a fair crack of the whip, don’t invoke your imagination as per normal, - correct “
you claim that I and the Father are one, supports Jesus claiming to be God or at least one of a three person God.” 
But no-where did I suggest that “WOW, does that mean we all become God

But no-where did I suggest that “WOW, does that mean we all become God = Based on Jesus's CLEAR interpretation of I and the Father are one in John 17:20 -24 and your claim, then whether you like it or not, YOUR line of thinking would have to say, we all become God as well.

Your cannot twist and manipulate I and the Father are one, to mean one thing here and another over there = Simples.
Your trying to have your cake and eat it as well, no go chum lol.
---------------------
[FONT=Roboto][COLOR=#212121][SIZE=14px][COLOR=#001320][FONT=Roboto]Became a Begotten God, confirming his words in John 17:3, that he wasn't a God before the cross etc.[/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]

[COLOR=#212121][SIZE=14px]"One does not become a God wotsup, unless it’s a God of this world, but it’s a start that you acknowledged that Jesus is God, Jesus is the only begotten son, not God."[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[COLOR=#212121][SIZE=14px]You fail to understand the nature of God, God engulfs everything, there is no room for another or a begotten God[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[COLOR=#212121][SIZE=14px]"Again, you are doing what you do best mental gymnasium trying to fit things into your prospective especially your anti-Trinitarian view"

Doesn't become a God, hmmm, according to the following, those words are of the father of lies.
John 1:18 - God no one has seen ever yet; the only[/SIZE][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#212121][SIZE=14px][B] Begotten God,[/B][/SIZE][/COLOR]
[FONT=Roboto][COLOR=#212121] the being in the bosom of the Father (RHS), He has made him known.

[B][SIZE=14px]So, one can clearly become a Begotten God BECAUSE the Bible says so and he is seated at the RHS of God.[/SIZE][/B]
He is a God under The God whether you like it or not and the 2nd Adam MAN to boot.

Begotten = you were Not the begotten one before being begotten, couple that with - John 17:3 This now is the eternal life that they should know You (Father) the only true God and whom you have sent, Jesus Christ.
(Jesus he, independently of himself, references the Father as the only true God when he was here).
He confirms this by quoting the OT -> Hear, Israel: Yehowah OUR God is ONE Yehowah = Jesus in no way is Yehowah the Father.

So like it or not, the Bible TRUTH is, that after the cross Jesus became a Begotten God, and now ruling for the Father until death no more, when he then hands to Kingdom to the Father and is Then subject to the Father that put all things under him, SO THAT God (Father) maybe ALL in ALL.
(That will be by what he is, the Holy Spirit and his Word that he also is).

"[BCOLOR=#ffffff][LEFT][FONT=Roboto][COLOR=#212121][SIZE=14px]Do you honestly think this is what Jesus had in mind in John 17:3[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/LEFT][/BCOLOR]"

Absolutely, he foreknew a lot of things from the God and Father who he quotes from the OT -> Hear, Israel: Yehowah OUR God is One Yehowah and NOT Yehowshuwa - Jesus.

"[BCOLOR=#ffffff][LEFT][FONT=Roboto][COLOR=#212121][SIZE=14px]Read the whole chapter, Jesus is in anguish as he’s facing the cross and even more so as he has the full weight of humanity’s sins (due to the god of this world satan) and needed strength to face that mission that he was born for and why he came to this world, to undo the work of the god of the world for our salvation[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/LEFT][/BCOLOR]

[BCOLOR=#ffffff][LEFT][FONT=Roboto][COLOR=#212121][SIZE=14px]This is what Jesus was referring to when he said “You are the true God” in contrast to the god of the world, this is what was in Jesus mind at that point of time of his mission, overcome the god of the world, nowhere did he have in his mind as per the take that you have in your mind in disproving his nature,[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/LEFT][/BCOLOR]"

That of yours, as in why he referenced the Father as in the only true God, is simply no more than your wild imaginations running wild within you, and no where to be mentioned in the entire Ch 17.
He simply states a clear and obvious truth of who the only true God was when he was here, which is backed by Paul 1 Cor 8:6 etc.

[B]SO ONCE AGAIN YOU FAIL TO ADDRESS, THAT JESUS INDEPENDENTLY DEFINES, REFERENCES THE FATHER AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD WHEN HE WAS HERE.[/B]
-----------------[/COLOR][/FONT]

God and The Man Jesus in Unity.

"But you just said he became a begotten God, so which is it, is he a man or a God, you can’t have it both ways, a man cannot become divine in nature, as he’s always a man"

I see desperation here, fumbling, as I can't believe you would even think such, never mind saying it.

The 2nd Adam Man, was a Man when here, and after the cross this MAN became a begotten God and is STILL a man and this MAN the God and Father is going to use to judge the world.
Just because a Man becomes a begotten God, doesn't mean that he changes from being a man, hmmm - lights on

"
man cannot become divine in nature, as he’s always a man
"

Cough, cough, education time, now take a seat lol
Divine 1. Of God.
2. Like God -> God raised him in word that he is Deu 18:18, Luke 2:40, 52 etc, etc.
3. a God.
Hmmm, one could say they are of God 1 Peter 1:23 and according to the above, this person MAN would be deemed as divine.

Might I suggest to you and others, it might be a Good idea to rein back your creative ideas, that your imaginations create out of the word divine, which do not exist
-------------------
In short they are one in Unity, by word just as Jesus Clearly states in 17:20 -> "by their word" ......"so that" -> they become one as we are one
.

"See again you are being selective in your verses,"

What I quoted there is from the 2 lead in verses for what follows, by their word = SO THAT sets the stage, context of what the following is in relation to.
Glory in 22 is in reference to the words Jesus gave them, which bring glory as in salvation etc, believing on/in him through THEIR WORD, which amounts to accepting the entire word of God (cross etc, etc), to believe in Jesus's name by their word = all become one as they are one.

John 17:24 - Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

And where was Jesus at that point in time -> John 17:16 - They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
So they Like Jesus would be deemed as - of above, of God, of heaven.

Hence Jesus is not asking that they become one EVEN AS he and the Father are one, for some future life, but in the here and now, exactly as he and the Father are one. = 10:30.
---------------------
"
One cannot say Jesus done it independent or by himself apart from God or the Father
"

What's that got to do with the price of eggs LOL.
If your refencing this to my statement on 17:3 where Jesus independently of himself refers to the Father as the Only true God = He is not DOING anything there, just making a truthful statement, it's not an action or work etc.

Expand

"Now for your question, we see in 2 Corinthians 13:14, the apostle Paul invokes the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, highlighting the equal divine status of the Holy Spirit. The same as with the Father and the Son, the 3 as one"
Definition: fellowship
Usage: (lit: partnership) (a) contributory help, participation, (b) sharing in, communion, (c) spiritual fellowship, a fellowship in the spirit.

This is not showing the Holy Spirit here as a separate person and neither is it showing it is a separate person to the God here who IS the Father.

Yes it is, showing it separate by using using your Definition
How can one be in partnership if its only one person, it takes two to be in partnership
How can one, "contributory help, participation" its only one person, it takes two to contributory help, participation
How can one "sharing in, communion," it takes two to "sharing in, communion,"
Same goes it takes two for spiritual fellowship, a fellowship in the spirit.

The Holy Spirit proceeding from the God and Father,

Thank you, if it comes from the Father its not the Father directly is it, its separate, otherwise its the Father himself, and with Jesus asking the Father, does that mean Jesus sent the Father down, Jesus is Saying he will ask the Father to sent another advocate, He didn't say I'll ask the Father to come down.

John 14:16-17 "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."

You're NEVER born of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but God alone who is the Father,

Rubbish, Baptise in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit, the one Jesus defines independently of himself, as the only true God when he was here John 17:3.

More of your bluff and imagination on scripture like I keep telling you you are adding to scripture, this is a classical example and no need to sink to your level by trying to answer such nonsense,
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