First up, what lead me into the faith was seeing a 2-3 hr doco at the drive in theaters on the finding of Noah's ark, around 40 yrs ago.
That got me asking questions, and like you I expect, I believed and followed what someone else told me -> Trinity.
I didn't read this following at first to make my own decision.
What I was fed (seeds), I then read the Bible and verses, interpreted them to suit these seeds, just like I expect you did and are doing.
Foolishly, I just became a follower and into the false trinity belief, until around 7 yrs ago when my eyes were opened.
Eye opened, read around the first 5 verses of the said Gospel of Thomas, that IS what you WILL experience when you find truth = Very disturbed, like, how in God's name could this happen, so, so many deceived and the answer is 2 Thes 2:1-11, it began around the 100's, due to the CC's.
I have already given you info on this.
This is what you are doing, you make points, which I answered, address several posts back, you have then come back with a long post, some of those points I had previously addressed, so that tells me, you ignored my prior posts, addressing your points WITH the Bible.
I directly address your points with the Bible and if not the Bible, I can assure you that I can back them with the Bible, just ask, you do not show the same curtesy?????????
I directly and respectfully address your points, I take them apart, break then down and address them, but you pay no attention to them and don't pull them apart and show us FROM the Bible, why they are wrong.
"I find you're twisting words and texts too much to suit your agenda."Talk is cheap, it's not my agenda but the Bibles.
Support this claim of yours, take my said twisting and show it's twisting WITH the Bible.
I would be ever so happy to accept your corrections, IF they are supported by the Bible.
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If the Father and Son are one, then wouldn't they be God."
NOI'm sure I already addressed this in another ignored post, so I will do it again and let Jesus interpret what "I and the Father are one" is saying, means.
You need to digest ONE key of the entire Bible and that is WORD and words.
It was a play of words that got Adam and Eve where they ended up, and this play on words continues to this very day.
I will highlight areas that You need to pay attention to;
John 17:20-23 -
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;So that they all may be one; as thou, Father,art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: -> "I and the Father are one".
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."Their word" sets the stage, it is what's under discussion, a persons and God's and Jesus's words.
All accepting and abiding in the same words, which naturally bring the same message = God, Jesus and them to become one in WORD.
The glory referenced here = the word of God, by accepting it, abiding in it etc, is the only way you will become one as they are one.
This is the glory as only begotten by the side of the Father, full of grace and truth John 1:14, the very fact glory is referenced as grace and truth (John 17:17), tells you that the glory is referring to the word of God, just as 17:22 is.
(Sadly, because most Bibles have corrupted versions of 1:14, the truth will never shine, just as it will not, for a long as people falsely claim that Jesus is the Word in 1:1 = Satan's trap, Gottcha moment, Checkmate, pretty much smack dead center of the Bible.
Based on your rational, when people become one "even as" God and Jesus are one, that they also must become God ![rolleyes.png](https://hotcopper.com.au/images/smilies/rolleyes.png)
You need to explain your way around this, WITH the Bible.
Don't forget, Jesus is asking for EXACTLY the same as what he and the Father have."in one" -> 1 Cor 15:28 -
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
(Jesus defines this God here as the Father and the ONLY True God John 17:3).
God will be all in all via his word (that he is) and his Spirit (.......and God was the Word, not Jesus).
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"So if the Father is "God" and Yeshua is simply the Messiah, the son of God, then why are we to worship him?"
"Simply the Messiah" -> The very fact that you use "simply" for the 2nd Adam man, the one whom God was well pleased with and the one that became in favor with God Luke 2:52, suggests it is You that's being disrespectful, downgrading Jesus.
Luke 4:18 - Messiah = The Spirit of the Lordis upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the goodnews (flesh) to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Why are we to worship him = I have already addressed that, lights on lol.
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"I think where you are confused is you think the word "God" is singular"
Lets let the Bible SHOW, who exactly is displaying confusion, unless you say the Bible is confusion, despite the God not being a God of confusion.
Deu 6:4 - Hear, O Israel: Yehowah our Godis one Yehowah:
Jesus is Yehowshuwa and not Yehowah.
1= 1 and NOT 3 = 1.
If your one of those that follow this crazy line that Elohim is plural and therefore Elohim = Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then YOU NEED to be consistent here, and show me in the Bible, WHERE are the other two Moses referenced.
God the singular God, made Moses an Elohim. ![eek.png](https://hotcopper.com.au/images/smilies/eek.png)
Houston, we have a problem, we cannot find the other two Moses up here ![tongue.png](https://hotcopper.com.au/images/smilies/tongue.png)
Oh Moses's, oh Moses's, where for art thou ![biggrin.png](https://hotcopper.com.au/images/smilies/biggrin.png)
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"Romans 14:!1 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
I suggest you get up to speed in Heb's, this is in reference to after the cross, being exalted, glorified etc, etc, because of what the Man Jesus achieved.
He is the Fathers representative and everything he does and receives is to the Glory of the Father as well as himself, which travels back up the line to the Father, as he made it all possible.
As Jesus said, I can of my own self do nothing.
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"To me this is pointless discussion.."To call it a discussion, I would say is a Big stretch, you have laid out your points, they have been countered, you have ignored the counters and not directly or even addressed them.
You have simply come back, off topic into other areas, you need to stay on track with THE discussion point, or points.
I put a lot of time in addressing yours, I don't copy/paste others work.
BUT, your not alone, this has pretty much been the same pattern on here for around 7 yrs, so that in itself, says heaps.
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Re you numbers subject -> off track.
I can also tell that you, have probably been feeding yourself with Youtubes (numbers etc) -> careful with regards to play of words, seeds can be set very easily.
Yes, numbers are very relevant in the Bible (one of God's seals), but not numerology.
If you want to get serious with ref to more of his seals, which allow you to do quite a number of cross references, re Bible messages, then understand what the Hebrew letters mean, represent, their number values and what these numbers also represent.
Then pick some Key words, like God's 4 letter name, and the "I AM" and just in these two individually, the same story, you can see God's plan for grace, for man and how he is going to draw man, hook him and that is through his word and his word/grace touches down.
That is just a brief there.
Words, Beginning, End, and many other key words.
The Bible says, God reveals the end from the Beginning, I would have to relook to see what I personally established with Beginning, but if memory serves me correct, the start to end is all there.
If your interested, as an exercise, just take the word Lamb, it's Hebrew letters and their meanings and their numbers and their meanings, and see what picture gets painted and see if it aligns perfectly with a mission of Jesus's.
Check a few sites on the net, to get at least two credible takes on letter and number meanings, which you should be able to find Bible verses, on topics to back it.
In other words, don't get creative and step outside the Bible.
From a number of words, 5-10, the same theme keeps coming up, but I won't get into that.